The routes through which the science base is translated into innovative and competitive technology : minutes of evidence, Wednesday 5 May 1993 ...

12 Pages·1993·2.8 MB·English

by  Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons. Select Committee on Science and Technology

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HOUSE OF COMMONS SESSION 1992-93
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
COMMITTEE
THE ROUTES THROUGH WHICH
THE SCIENCE BASE IS TRANSLATED
INTO INNOVATIVE AND
COMPETITIVE TECHNOLOGY
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Wednesday 5 May 1993
Mr A J C Britton, Professor S J Prais and Mrs H Steedman
Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed
5 May 1993
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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE
WEDNESDAY 5 MAY 1993
Members present:
Sir Giles Shaw, in the Chair
Mr Spencer Bastiste Lynne Jones
Dr Jeremy Bray Mr Andrew Miller
Mrs Anne Campbell Mr William Powell
Cheryl Gillan Sir Trevor Skeet
Examination of Witnesses
Mr A J C Britton, Director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR),
PROFESSOR S J Prats, Senior Research Fellow, NIESR, and Mrs H STEEDMAN, Senior Research Fellow,
NIESR, were examined.
Chairman industry on the continent, particularly Germany,
was the way in which training was organised and the
1. Thank you for responding to our invitation to resultant level of skills, particularly skills qualifica-
come and give formal evidence. You will not be in tions. The relationship between that and new
the least surprised to learn that we have invited you technology is clearly central to your inquiry. I would
to do so because of the research and studies that you start by mentioning two aspects. The first is to do
have undertaken over the years. In particular, with the flexibility of the labour force in acquiring
Professor Prais is very well known on this subject; new skills. It certainly appears that having been
and indeed Mrs Steedman has done much of the trained in one occupation to craftsman or technician
research herself. We have some set questions, but level it becomes possible to make use of that attitude
you will be aware that the Committee may put to work, if you like, and the idea of motivation to
supplementaries as matters proceed. The first section develop mastery of the particular production
we are going to look at concerns skills and the technique is in a sense transferable. One might think
economy. Research conducted by NIESR in the past that someone who was very precisely trained to do
shows that Britain’s poor level of skills training is one occupation would find it difficult to transfer to
hindering the introduction of new and more another, but the opposite seems to be true. General
productive techniques, and it is also introducing training is a necessary foundation on which more
some inflexibility in the labour force which itself specialised techniques to deal with new technology
appears to contribute to United Kingdom manufac- can be built. The other point that I wish to
turers finding it difficult to compete with low-wage emphasise is a fairly mundane one to do with the
countries. In your view, how much of the United maintenance of machinery. In comparisons of
Kingdom’s problems in introducing high-technol- matched samples of plant we frequently find that in
ogy and high-value added goods and processes can Britain and on the continent the same type of
be ascribed to poor education and/or poor training? machinery and production process is being used. But
(Mr Britton) Perhaps I may start by saying a little when one comes to measure output per head there is
about the background to the work we have done and a significant margin of the order of 10 per cent and
its relation to the question you put. I will then ask sometimes 50 per cent or more lower between
my colleagues to provide you with a fuller account of comparable processes being carried out in the two
what we have to say on the subject. The research on countries. In some cases one can discern finer
which we are drawing has been conducted over a distinctions. One of the most important things seems
period of more than 10 years. It began with to be whether there are people available on the shop
international comparisons of productivity, not floor who understand the new _ technologies
specifically technology, that is, the measurement of sufficiently well to be able to maintain the machinery
output per head or hour in a number of different to a high standard so that time is not wasted when
areas mainly, though not only, in the field of machines are not running.
manufacturing. It is based both on a study of (Professor Prais) Perhaps I may give a little more
national statistics and actual visits to matched historical perspective to our research. You asked
samples of plants. There are some particular about the importance of a number of factors. To put
industries or occupations about which we have been it into perspective, in an earlier study in 1981 when
able to assemble a certain amount of expertise, but we looked at Britain, Germany and the United
they are being taken as examples from which we States we asked wider questions, such was: What
hope it will be possible to draw more general was the importance of size of plant? Were our plants
conclusions. Indeed, they seem to be consistent with or enterprises too small? Was there inadequate
the sort of picture one can find by looking at investment in machinery? We then got on to the
comprehensive statistics from censuses. We started question of the role of labour relations, training and
from a study of productivity generally but it soon education. At that time we concluded that the size of
became clear that one of the main distinguishing plant here was larger, and investment in machinery
features of the comparison of British industry with per employee was higher here than abroad, but the
The cost of printing and publishing these Minutes of Evidence is estimated by HMSO at £673.
2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mr A J C BriITTON,
5 May 1993] PROFESSOR S J PRAIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Chairman Contd]
real gaps were in the labour relations and vocational alternative to going to school. But in the German
training. That was 10 years ago. Today, I would say system as it has now developed it is not a matter of
that of those two factors labour relations has compulsion but tradition. If you like, there is an
become of less significance. As far as the training element of social compulsion. People are expected to
issue is concerned, I would go back a little further do it and gain prestige, and they have to explain why
and say that the main issues to be solved are training they are not undertaking training rather than why
and basic schooling, both primary and secondary, if they are. It is the relics of a system in which there
we are to have an economy of world class competing used to be compulsion.
with the Japanese and Germans.
4. JI understand the traditional argument in the
context of Germany. I am talking of Britain as it is
Mr Batiste
now in trying to address the shortfall that you have
2. Correct me if 1 am wrong but you started with identified. From what you have said it is suggested
the proposition that basic training and education in that the Germans have moved away from the area of
school was lacking in output from schools. Clearly, legislative compulsion towards peer group pressure
you are pointing to a gap in comparable output in and social expectations. In the context of Britain
basic education in the primary and secondary with its background it may be that only with
education system. You are also pointing to a lack of financial and other incentives will we be able to build
skills. What specific skills are you talking about over up to that position?
and above the basic education you have described?
(Mr Britton) 1 think that it is perhaps better to
(Mr Britton) J think that the right distinction to
stop short of absolute compulsion because you
draw is between a specific skill which is appropriate
cannot force people to learn, and it is very difficult to
for a particular production process, or even for a
have even a small minority disrupting the class
particular firm, where the enterprise has every
because basically they are there as a result of the
incentive to train its workers to a high standard, and state forcing them to be there. But the combination
general training which is transferable so that if one of social expectations and strong incentive seems to
invests in general training one is raising the skill
me to be the most hopeful approach. I think that
levels of that workers when one knows he can go
Britain is different from Germany, the latter having
elsewhere and use his skill. Where we see the
been through a period of compulsion. Britain has to
deficiency is in training to craft level of the kind that
start from a position in which for a period it has
used to be examined by City and Guilds, not training
trained a very low proportion of the population.
which 1s specific to a particular production process.
(Professor Prais) The American example is
(Professor Prais) The earlier worry was that we
difficult to quantify. I think that the French example
were not training enough university graduates at the
is more instructive. There is no tradition of
top level. That is no longer a worry. You have seen
compulsion there and figures relating to incentives
our figures in that respect. There remain questions as
are of interest. If you look at how much more a
to whether within the graduate level we have enough
skilled craftsman—up.to City and Guilds standard
engineers or too many arts graduates. Our main
—in Britain earns compared with an unskilled
deficiency is at the middle level—the number of
person, the gap is of the order of 25 per cent. It is
people training to become mechanics or electricians
much the same in Germany, we would say, as a
or qualified builders. That is where the problem lies.
result of their tradition of compulsion and social
There are too few of those. Instead of the recent
pressures. But in France, where that tradition does
reforms increasing the number of people trained as
not exist, the earnings gap is of the order of 50 per
broadly-based skilled craftsmen, they have focused
cent on the basis of the last compiled figures (1989).
on vocational qualifications, which I would prefer to
The question we have to ask ourselves is: How much
call simple skills tests. They are not such as to
easier and more acceptable would it be to raise our
develop a career based on broad secondary school
present earnings differential between the craftsman
leaving qualifications that lead to vocational
and unskilled labourer to 50 per cent as compared
qualification of the kind that could be considered as
with introducing some form of compulsion?
a basis for entering university, for those who want to
Chairman: But it must imply a thumping on-cost
go that far.
to your product.
3. In your work you have contrasted the
German system of training, which has an element of
compulsion, with the American system that offers Chery! Gillan
incentives to acquire training. Which of those do you
consider to be more likely to be effective in the 5. I want to go back to the opening question and
context of the United Kingdom? turn it around. To what extent do you feel that poor
(Mr Britton) It is not necessarily a choice. One management is responsible for this shortage? We are
can think of a system in which both incentive and not creating the demand for skilled labour. Perhaps
regulation are involved. The system on the continent management are giving the wrong signals to the
used to be one of compulsion in the sense that there education system. I see that you are nodding your
was no alternative to staying on for some vocational head. I should like to know to what extent you feel
training, in the same way that there was no that is a contributory factor. If there is a vicious
THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE 3
Mr A J C BrITTON,
5 May 1993]
PROFESSOR S J PRAIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Cheryl Gillan Contd]
circle here perhaps we should be paying more government with hardly any contribution from
attention to managing demand rather than the industry. But we believe that has been achieved
supply sector of the education system. largely as a result of the very high differentials which
(Mr Britton) | think that much of the behaviour are linked in collective agreements to recognised
of British industry can be understood as a perfectly state-validated qualifications.
rational way of operating in a system where training
is deficient, that is to say, if British manufacturers
Chairman
seem to be, rather reluctant to adopt new
technologies and go for the high value-added 8. Does that mean that the state sets the
products it is partly because they know from differential, or is it the manufacturer who sets it?
experience that they cannot get the labour force to (Mrs Steedman) It has been entirely a matter for
do it. It is a vicious circle because the demand for collective agreement between employers and trade
training has to be there in order for the differential unions.
to open up which creates incentive for people to
9. So, manufacturer and trade unions in France
train. But I think it is too easy to say that British
can set those levels in the market?
management are at fault. We have to understand the
(Mrs Steedman) Yes.
system within which British management operates.
It may well be that given those circumstances they
are behaving at least in their own interests, and Dr Bray
perhaps nowadays that is what industrialists 10. Is there a danger of our trying to win the last
understand their main motivation to be: to maximise war in the sort of training system that we are
the profits of their firm rather than produce a skilled attempting to create? There has been a change in
labour force which may be poached by other firms. technology and a change in the relevance of
particular skills and how skills interact with other
Mrs Campbell qualities—such as team spirit, individual respon-
sibility, initiative and independent-mindedness.
6. I am interested in what you say about the There are very different skills apparent in an Indian
response to management pressure. There are issues bazaar, Chinese building society or African dance
about how much the state should provide and how evening. Let us take the simple case of the skill of a
much industry should provide. I do not know typist compared with a modern word-processing
whether you have any clear views about that in view operator. An efficient office worker will now be able
of the response you have just made. Do you feel that to take a commercial software package and adapt it
more input from the state would help change to the task in hand. That requires an entirely
attitudes and therefore supply industry with more different set of attitudes and skills from that of a
skilled workers, which would have a knock-on shorthand or copy typist. Are we in danger of
effect? creating technicians who are good at the sort of
(Mrs Steedman) J do not believe that it is helpful things that people were doing in the last generation
to pose the question in an “either/or” sense. Is it and not the sort of things that will be required in the
management or training? When you talk to next?
managers in firms in Germany and, to a large extent, (Mr Britton) I think I would answer that partly
in France you realise that because they have grown by going back to the point which was emphasised
up in a training culture where training has been the earlier about basic general training and _ the
norm for perhaps 100 years they act in an entirely education that underlies it. Some knowledge of and
different way. They have a very good understanding familiarity with mathematics is necessary to skills of
of the relative value of different qualifications and a wide variety. Familiarity with mathematical
how they can be put to the most productive use in reasoning and precision of measurement is necessary
the particular firm. It is very difficult to see how for virtually any kind of skilled work. That is likely
British managers can acquire that knowledge to continue to be necessary for new technology. In
without being immersed in that sort of system. I the very nature of things we cannot foresee what new
would not want to try to revolutionise the way in technology will be. Therefore, trying to win the next
which managers are trained because I think that war now is not an option open to us. We do not
would be to act in a vacuum. I would have preferred know the precise technology with which we will need
to try to establish the training culture and be to grapple in the competitive market of the future.
confident that managers would act very differently What I am saying is that the more general the skills
once that had been established. that one imparts the more likely they are to be of
enduring value as technology changes. I think we
7. But are you saying that there has to be some have emphasised already that the responsibility of
initial impetus given to the training culture? If so, government is greatest for the general skills of the
can it come from industry itself or does it have to population as a whole and least for the very specific
come from government? skills which have to be taught as a matter of
(Mrs Steedman) Professor Prais pointed to the on-going development by the employer himself.
way in which the French had created a very high
demand for training in France which was entirely 11. There is quite a different pattern of skills in
financed by the young people themselves and the factory today from the factory of 30 years ago.
4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mr A J C BriTTON,
5 May 1993]
PROFESSOR S J PRAIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Dr Bray Contd]
Yet it seems to me that much of the concept of (Professor Prais) We are talking of people who
NVQs and so on is based on the factories of 30 years have been made redundant half-way through their
ago. You do not assemble satellites on a production working lives. I think that that is a different problem
line in Britain. You employ graduate electrical from what we do for 15 to 18 year-olds.
engineers. If you are putting together a car you have
different sorts of workers. The most modern 14. There is an identical pattern of training
methods of car assembly, say at Nissan in preference in secondary school leavers. I am talking
Sunderland, are different from those at older plants about an area of my constituency.
in Japan. If you are responding to a _ very (Professor Prais) Presumably, it will be based on
rapidly-changing work force and employment local offers of employment. We have gone very far
opportunity of the kind that we are facing, should down the road towards dismantling our manufactur-
we not think much more fundamentally of what ing industry.
training models to look for that can be adapted to
our particular characteristics and comparative 15. That is absolutely right. But we face the dual
advantages, rather than trying to ape the German problem of having to create a new manufacturing
and Japanese practices of 30 years ago? industry whilst re-equipping people with skills. What
(Professor Prais) The question is often raised: can is the combination of training and industrial
one leap-frog the whole procedure and cut out, from development strategy? Do not the two have to fit
our school curriculum, basic practical subjects such together?
as carpentry and technical drawing? All we can say (Professor Prais) 1 think they do. There is an
is that there is a temptation to leapfrog in this important distinction to be drawn between
country; when we go abroad we always ask that retraining and training school leavers ab initio. In
question. In secondary schools in Switzerland we our research work we have principally focused on
have seen children of 12 producing excellent the question of getting the underlying structure right
technical drawing on drawing boards. By the age of —that is, the initial training. The retraining issue is
14 they are working on CAD/CAM machines. We a very difficult one, particularly in the case of those
ask, “Is that old fashioned work on drawing boards who do not have the basic mathematics at school.
really necessary?” They say, “Yes. We have a highly
successful precision engineering industry of world
renown. We think that it is essential at that age to
Sir Trevor Skeet
begin with paper and pencil or ink”. They have not
been tempted to leap-frog. They constantly update 16. For many years we have been used to clear
their training courses; for example mechanics now demarcation in British industry between steel and
learn electronics. But their system is based on the coal and in other ways which has given the worker
established notion that at 15 you have to reach a very limited experience. Is that due to trade
certain satisfactory school leaving standard and then unionism or the inability of management to control
follow it by three or possibly four years of training those in their employ? We have found in recent years
of the traditional apprenticeship sort, with one or that the foreign companies that have been brought in
two days a week at school. I fear that if we try to get —Phillips Lighting from Holland, Nissan from
there by leap-frogging we shall fail as we have in so Japan and others—do not seem to have these
many other policies. practices. Workmen of even average ability seem to
be able to move forward and gain new experience. Is
ita management or labour problem? Where does the
responsibility lie?
Chairman
(Mr Britton) It is in part a management problem
12. So, the basic skills remain essential? and in part a problem of labour relations, but
(Professor Prais) At those ages, yes. We should underlying it is the problem of the lack of an
begin them early and not cut them out and substitute adequate framework of qualifications within which
general problem-solving skills, as we tend to do in people’s competence can be recognised by employers
our schools today. in a variety of different firms. If you have a situation
where the competence of the craftsman is judged
solely by his having served his time and being a
Dr Bray member of the relevant union then associating
particular jobs with union membership is a very
13. J want to explore how it operates in practice poor substitute for associating particular jobs with
in a particular work force. Of a thousand steel the proper qualifications. I think that if we had had
workers made redundant at Ravenscraig, only 12 a tradition of publicly recognised and properly
per cent opted to train for manufacturing skills. The tested qualifications from the start the kind of
others took training in service industries, heavy demarcation dispute, of which we were all well
goods vehicle driving, warehouse management and aware, would never have become the feature of
other things. In those circumstances, would you say British industry that at one time it was. It is less of
to those people, “You ought to equip yourself as a a problem now, but I believe that it is very intimately
Nissan car worker or National Semiconductor related to the problem of providing an adequate
assembly line worker’? structure for technical qualifications.
THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE )
Mr A J C BriTTON,
5 May 1993]
PROFESSOR S J PRAIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Sir Trevor Skeet Contd]
17. If the managers had gone to the Harvard recruited people who have good general training.
Business School in the States, for example, and had Our worry is that the general training of the total
come back with very aggressive ideas and population compared with our continental rivals is
implemented them and the workers were motivated so lacking. Obviously, it is not the successful firms
at the factory in question they would probably want that we worry about; it is the average and below that
to get on and learn new skills and learn about concern us. The same is true of the work force. The
technology. Is it not a management rather than concern is over the training not of the high fliers but
labour problem? the average and below. This seems to be an historical
(Mr Britton) \ think that one has to address defect of British industry.
management, workers and government in thinking
of the problems of the British economy. To say that 19. Are you saying that the more successful
this is a problem of management may nevertheless firms are able to recruit the work force with broad
point to an underlying difficulty—that managers skills on which they can build? If so, why is that?
take the decisions and therefore in a sense they are (Mr Britton) That is right. Despite the deficiencies
the people who will naturally get the blame. But I of the British educational system, there are a lot of
think it is right to see the environment within which school leavers who are very able and well motivated.
those decisions are taken. It may be that managers They get recruited by the best firms, and those are
found at one time in the past that they had no the success stories. What worries us is the large
alternative but to agree with the establishment of number of people who do not fall into that category,
demarcation, which proved disastrous for British will not be thought suitable for positions by the
industry in the longer term. Perhaps to understand more ambitious firms and will drift into casual work
everything is to forgive, but it was a mistake. I agree or no work at all. That parallels very much the
that they should never have let it happen. distinction that you are making between the general
and specific training. British industry can provide
specific training for those who have succeeded at the
Lynne Jones
general stage, but the provision of general training
18. You seem to be distinguishing between two for the population as a whole is not something which
types of development of people’s skills. One is British industry can itself provide. It is the
narrow-based training that is specific to the task in responsibility of the community as a whole and is
hand, which seems to mean that the employer is something in which the Government are necessarily
faced with the cost of doing the training himself, and involved.
the other is more widely-based training to provide (Mrs Steedman) | think the original question was
skills which are based on the individual having an whether or not we had made progress. If we look at
incentive to develop a qualification so that he can what we have been doing in youth training in the
adapt to changes in technology and processes and past two years, when young people have been
can move from one job to another. Therefore, either obliged to follow NCVQ courses whilst undergoing
the worker has an incentive to do it or there is a youth training and have been expressly forbidden
laid-down qualification set by the state, perhaps from studying the traditional City & Guilds
even paid for by the state, which is a different way of qualifications, we can see that public money is being
generating that more broadly-based skill. I get the spent to give those people very narrow skills-based
impression you are advocating that we should move training which in no way corresponds to anything
towards more broadly-based training to equip that we consider is necessary to raise the skills base
people to be adaptable and develop as things change. in this country. Professor Prais has written
It will be of interest to know how in recent years you extensively on the need for external assessments of
believe we have changed between those different qualifications. We have also stressed the need for a
levels and skills. There have been pressures exerted general assessment in the training of young people
from incoming Japanese companies and others for which will allow for progression and development at
team-building and more flexible working. In recent a later stage. To respond to the question whether we
years has there been an improvement and a move have made progress and where we have got to, we
towards what you perhaps wish to see, and what has have most definitely gone backwards in introducing
been the result? Have we created a framework to NCVQs as the only qualification funded publicly
move further in that direction? that can be studied for in youth training.
(Mr Britton) The impression I get is that the
specific training in some firms is very well done when
Mr Miller
it has the clear incentive that it will win out in the
competition if it can train people. A necessary part 20. Such narrow training takes us back to the
of being engaged in certain industries is that one has demarcation argument. We can debate that chicken
a continuous process of improving the training of and egg argument all night, that is, whether at its
one’s work force. It becomes current rather than inception it was a management or trade union tool.
capital expenditure that has to be incurred every I think there is plenty of evidence to show that in the
year. When we have conducted projects that have shipyards it was developed as a management tool to
concentrated on firms that are known to be doing differentiate between a boilermaker and sheet-metal
well we see very good practices in those firms as far worker. It merely gauged the metal that they bashed.
as training for specific skills is concerned. They have There was no difference in training; it just happened
6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mr A J C BriTTON,
5 May 1993] PRoFESSOR S J PRAIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Mr Miller Contd]
to be a convenient tool. That is an interesting Chairman
reflection on history. What I am more interested in
23. Let me put a quick question on the TECs, to
is what practice you have identified that has
which you have already referred. Do you think that
encouraged companies and organisations to break
with all the overlaps between education and training
out of that mould. Have you identified any common
the TECs have helped to remove some of those
threads? Is it simply due to a fear of going under, or
problems? Are the responsibilities which were
has that been created by a complex interrelation
overlapping in your report in the ‘eighties now
between work force and management?
somewhat less today? Do you think that the
(Mr Britton) \ think that it has been perceived in
introduction of the TECs has helped to remove the
the eighties that the competitive environment means
overlap in the responsibilities for training which you
that one has to learn from what is happening in
identified in the ‘eighties as being something which
continental countries and Japan where the approach
led to difficulty?
to skills and the employment of skilled labour has
(Professor Prais) Overlap in responsibilities?
been so very different. In that as in many other areas
the examples have been there for us to copy. I think 24. Yes. The research produced in the ‘eighties
that there has been a change in attitudes of trade indicated that firms were becoming confused by the
unions as well as management. It may be that the roles of the TECs, the industry training organisa-
change in management took place first, but there has tions, education and training providers and the
also been a change in trade unions. They have come NCVQ. Some TECs were trying to set standards
to see that the success of their members requires themselves. Is there still a confusion, or do you think
greater flexibility and willingness to learn new skills that it is now more rational than it was?
and cross traditional boundaries. There has been (Professor Prais) 1 am not sure that I can answer
pressure in the market place that has led to that.
enlightened self-interest.
Mrs Campbell
21. But what you say is that that has happened
despite government, who presumably have nar- 25. A report earlier this year, for which Mrs
rowed the training base? Steedman was responsible, pointed out the
difficulties and the responsibilities for administra-
(Mr Britton) I do not think that government went
out of its way to narrow the training base. What tion and funding which were divided between local
happened in the case of the TECs was an education authorities, the Department for Educa-
understandable wish to ensure that the skills tion, the further education funding councils and now
provided led to a rather narrow definition of what it the funding agency for schools. Do you think that
was that industry wanted. There was also an that will create confusion in the provision of training
involvement in TECs of larger companies rather and the strategic role of education?
(Mrs Steedman) J think that one of the problems
than smaller ones. If there was a single firm that was
in a strong position to influence the TEC it could that arises is that it is very difficult to see who is
ensure that the interests of that individual firm taking responsibility for important areas of policy.
rather than the influence of the whole labour force in One of those is the guarantee of quality of training
that area was the basis on which the courses were set. and training standards. I believe that NVQs are
awarded by City & Guilds and validated by NCVQ.
They are provided in colleges which until May of this
year were funded by local education authorities.
Mr Powell From May of this year they will be funded by the
further education funding council. The teachers are
22. Are there any areas in the division of paid by those authorities, but the TECs have played
responsibility between the Department for Educa- a very important role in providing some of the
tion and the Department of Employment that are funding for those teachers’ salaries. In this very
causing difficulties at the present time that you wish confused situation the colleges are supposed to be
to highlight and illuminate for us? encouraged to get their students through NCVQ
(Mr Britton) \ do not think that we necessarily see qualifications by having 25 per cent of the funding of
it as a problem between departments. It is a question their colleagues withheld until those students pass. I
of the purposes that are being served by education was trying to explain that situation to some foreign
policy generally; in other words, there is always a visitors. They repeatedly asked me who was
conflict in setting education policy between the responsible for maintaining the quality and
general cultural development of the population and standards of those qualifications. With all those
the more specific skills which are necessary for the bodies concerned it is impossible to see who carries
economic life of the country. Part of the implication final responsibility. I think that that problems arises
of our studies is that the economic benefit of from having so many agencies involved.
education has not been given sufficient emphasis
traditionally in this country in the design of 26. Can you say something about training
education policy. Transferring responsibility from credits and the pilot schemes that the Government
one Ministry to another may make a bit of difference have been running over the past few years? I know
in that respect, but I am sure that it is not enough. that the idea of training credits was to try to put
THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE ~—
Mr A J C BritTTon,
5 May 1993]
PROFESSOR S J PRAIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Mrs Campbell Contd]
power into the hands of young people themselves. Chairman
Perhaps it has not been as successful as was hoped in
30. There must be a discernible element in the
that respect. Do you see that as a way out of the
pattern. Is it parental motivation?
confusion you have just described?
(Professor Prais) It is poor school organisation.
(Mrs Steedman) 1 am afraid that I have not-seen
How much time is wasted in a school and what is
any independent research on training credits and do
being taught? As far as mathematics is concerned,
not feel able to comment. I have seen only the
are you teaching arithmetic that everybody needs to
Department of Employment’s own evaluation.
know or are you filling children’s time with rather
Mrs Campbell: There is a rather good one by
general exercises in tessellations, counting the
NATFHE that has been published recently.
number of cars that pass outside the front door and
so on? It is organised lesson time that is
Sir Trevor Skeet unsatisfactory.
27. We find that a number of European
countries appear to get a lot out of their education Mr Batiste
systems, particularly Germany and France. Can one
31. I completely share your view that you have
say that in the United Kingdom the employer is able
to be more focused in the type of thing you are
to build on to the product offered to him by the
teaching when you are considering a subject like
school or college?
mathematics. But it seems to me that part of the
(Mr Britton) I think that the situation in this
problem is that we specialise too much too soon and
country is regarded as unsatisfactory by most
there is a more general need in the educational
employers. They find that when they take on young
system for a more broadly-based pattern of
people they have to devote some of their own
teaching. Is that an accurate perception of the
resources to making good the deficiencies in many
problem?
secondary schools. Again, I think that the emphasis
(Professor Prais) No. When one comes to
must be on the teaching of those of average ability
vocational training under NCVQ one specialises too
and below, who account for more than half the much. In schools we need a broad curriculum but the
population. If you compare the standards achieved
syllabus for each subject needs to be focused on
in secondary schools, as in the case of mathematics
things which are useful and can lead on to higher and
—where it is quite straightforward to do so though
more difficult topics.
less so in some other subjects—you will find that the
average performance of the British school child lags
a year or more behind the performance on the Cheryl Gillan
continent or Japan. 32. Do you think that part of the equation
(Professor Prais) 1 think it is quite clear that when points towards the way in which we train our
you go to the secondary modern-type school on the teachers in terms of their management of the
continent the objective of the school is to prepare classroom and school time?
youngsters for vocational training. The link between (Professor Prais) Undoubtedly there are great
schooling and industry—employers—is much closer deficiencies there, but that in turn depends on what
than it is here. Career guidance is much better and framework of teaching is provided for the teacher.
more explicit and is a more essential part of the last At the moment, the national curriculum is very
two years of compulsory schooling. Mathematical vague. In mathematics one of the statements of
abilities have been referred to. Training in practical attainment is: ‘make generalisations’. You will not
subjects, be it woodwork, technical drawing, find that anywhere on the continent; you will find
electrical work or office work, is all carried through multiplication of decimals.
to a much more professional standard, that is, with
the intention of leading youngsters into vocational
training for two or three years. Chairman
33. Is it a matter of precision?
28. Are you suggesting that more expenditure is (Professor Prais) It is precision and clearly
necessary? defined tasks within each subject.
(Professor Prais) No.
Cheryl Gillan
29. As an observation, Japan has the lowest
public expenditure per student and the highest 34. You are asking for a more detailed national
educational outcome, and exactly the same seems to curriculum?
apply to the United States. We spend a lot on (Professor Prais) A more specific one—leaving
education but do not get the necessary results. Is it out a great many generalities which confuse teacher
an organisational or money problem? and pupil.
(Professor Prais) We do not believe it is a matter
of money. If one looks at Switzerland, Germany or 35. And an improvement of the training of
France and compare like with like there is no real teachers?
difference—perhaps it may be one or two points—in (Professor Prais) 1 am referring to training
the percentage of GDP spent on education. teachers suitable for an improved organisation of
8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Mr A J C BriTTON,
5 May 1993] PROFESSOR S J PRaIS and [Continued
Mrs H STEEDMAN
[Cheryl Gillan Contd]
schools. The tasks of the continental teacher are simply to treat the last couple of years in secondary
much more manageable than the tasks of the English school if you are not going to university as a
teacher. complete waste of time.
Chairman
Mrs Campbell
37. Do you think that the introduction of the
36. I want to ask about the divide between national curriculum will put right some of the
academic and technical and vocational education. deficiencies in education which you identified in your
That is something that has worried me for a report in the 1980s?-
considerable time. I note that the French manage to (Mr Britton) We were certainly keen that there
improve their vocational courses by bringing them should be a national curriculum. Some of the
into a Baccalaureate framework. At the moment, we problems that we identified in secondary schools
have two totally separate systems for the post-16s: when we began work in that area arose from a lack
A-levels and academic courses and NVQs. Do you of a set curriculum and proper progression from one
feel that bringing them together will help to raise level to another. But it can now be said that in some
educational standards in the technical and vocation- areas the curriculum has become over-prescriptive
al sense and give people a feeling that they are more and over-ambitious.
worthy and have more weight?
(Mrs Steedman) You are quite right about 38. But, subject to the significant reforms you
France. I tend to think that we have missed an have advocated, at least it is a good idea to have such
opportunity to create a technical and vocational a curriculum?
A-level to run alongside general A-levels. But that is (Mr Britton) My view is that we are better off
precisely what the French have done. There is no with a curriculum than without one.
pretence that the content of a vocational A-level is
the same as that of a general A-level, and it is well
understood that there is a hierarchy and that those Mr Miller
who take vocational A-levels do so because they are
not considered bright enough to do anything else. 39. Your comments about the curriculum being
One has not overcome that division at a stroke. It is non-specific may well not be music to the ears of
a very difficult, possibly an insoluble, problem. The John Patten. You get 10 out of 10 from my daughter
fact is that these qualifications are very popular who is currently going through it. I want to press
amongst young French people. The technical and you a little further, taking the information
vocational and general Baccalaureate are extremely technology block as an example. Do you mean that
popular. There are many more who wish to take the problem with the particular block is that it seeks
them than are able to. Nevertheless, they will have 60 to teach a bit of basic physics, a bit of basic
per cent of the age group obtaining Baccalaureate mathematics and a bit of information technology
qualifications this year. By creating qualifications instead of leaving some of those very specific
which are valued and given status one can improve subjects to other parts of the curriculum, and/or do
the motivation of young people. I think that it must you mean that on things like information technology
be very demotivating for young people in this —which after all is supposed to be a vocational skill
country who have followed vocational courses to —the curriculum should not be wasted by tagging
find that the qualifications they have worked hard to onto the end of it a written test as the means of
obtain have been abolished at the stroke of a pen. examining people, which is taking pupils away from
We keep doing it. We have abolished BTech hands-on activities on computer equipment?
(general); we have abolished BTech (first). There are (Mr Britton) There should be an opportunity in
hundreds of thousands of people holding these technology to teach them to do things, not just to
qualifications. I cannot see that gives anybody very teach them what it would be like to do things. I think
much motivation to work hard for a qualification if that it is the lack of practice and testing in practical
he does not know whether it will be there next year, skills which is perhaps the principal contrast
or in five years’ time. between teaching technology here and on the
(Mr Britton) It is impossible to legislate for the continent.
status of a qualification; it depends on public esteem.
Public esteem is won if someone is rigorously tested, 40. For example, in the existing technology
and to have that piece of paper shows that you have syllabus the pupil is introduced to the concept of
learnt something. That is the first requirement. It original thought and then taken to design to
should also be evident to people working on these application and evaluation. Those are all very
courses that by obtaining these qualifications they valuable skills but you would not see them placed in
improve their chances of getting good jobs. The those particular units. You would see them being
motivation of people at the top of secondary schools evaluated in some other way?
on the continent is noticeably better. They see (Mr Britton) I was talking about skills in a much
themselves as preparing for a specific job, or a class more down-to-earth sense. For example, it is useful
of job, whilst in this country there is a tendency to learn how to plane a bit of wood.