Re: Timing Belts (again)

529 Pages·1998·0.88 MB·English

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Subject: Re: Timing Belts (again)
From: vlsi.mitre.org!rll
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 07:07:54 EST
From: thumper.bellcore.com!deaddio (Michael DeAddio)
Has anyone had any internal engine damage after the
belt quit?
Yes, but not on an Eclipse. The timing belt on my '82 Rabbit (Diesel) just
broke. 5 out of 8 valves are bent.
I'm pretty sure that the valve clearances were
designed properly because I'm sure I would've heard about smashed
valves from others who have had this happen.
I wouldn't bet on it, unless you have the 8v engine (1.8l).
By the way... Mitsubishi is recommending now changing the timing belt every
50000 miles instead of 60000.
he said if I brought in my own belt it would void
the warranty.
It wouldn't surprise me if they used it as an argument to try to charge you.
If your car is still under warranty, just let them do it (it shouldn't cost
you anything, either, except for ``fluids'') and use the Mitsubishi one,
unless you have strong evidence that the Gates model is significantly better.
He also said that if brought in my own MTL tranny oil that it would
void the warranty.
There is a law that prohibits that. It says something like ``if a
manufacturer requires the owner to use a specific brand of parts or fluids in
order to keep the warranty valid, then the manufacturer should provide those
free of charge to the customer''. That's the reason why all the manuals
always read ``use Mitsubishi windshield washer fluid, part number 372487117,
OR EQUIVALENT''. I can get the exact reference if anyone is interested.
By the way, according to my dealer, it costs $2400-$3000 to repair the 2.0l
engines after the timing belt breaks.
~-------
Roberto L. Landrau [email protected]
The MITRE Corporation [email protected]
Bedford, MA 01730 [email protected]
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Subject: Re: Paint Damage
From: erika.bighouse.unipress.com!sparc!shevett (Dave Shevett)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 9:34:52 EDT
> My Talon is only 8 months old and now has about 5 years worth
> of nicks in the hood. So what should I do?
Well, the first answer would be compounding, which doesn't really fill in
the scratches, but does smooth out the rough edges and makes it look
better, but doesn't repair the damage.
I have the wonderful fortune of knowing of a very very reputable body/paint
shop in New Hope, PA (about 1hr 15 from NYC). When I decided to brush
bumpers with a ford Escort (black of course, my Talon is white), he
pulled the front left bumper, re-shaped it, re-painted it, re-rubbered
all the inside fender stuff, and managed to get all the icky scuff marks
out of my air dam. Took 4 days, and cost... get this - $320. I can't
tell that any work was done to it (the fender was almost turned inside
out, and another body shop estima6ted $900. That includes buying a new
fender, which would not have any underbody coating, etc etc)
Anyway. If you want to drop your car down for a week or so, I know he
can work on it :) (though boston is a bit of a distance :)
~--------------------.--------------------.--------------------------------
Dave Shevett | Unipress Software | "The shortest distance between
Systems Jockey | Edison, NJ USA | two puns is a straight line..."
[email protected] | [phone] x921 | - Doc Webster
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Subject: 94 model - rumor alert!
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:33 EST
From: GREG GRANVILLE <arlvax.psu.edu!GAG>
This comes from somebody that tells me he has connections at Mitsubishi.
One of the 94 Diamond Star configurations will retain the AWD drivetrain
and the 2.0 liter inline four. The front end design and radiator placement
will be changed in such a way that a new, larger front mounted intercooler
will be used. Also, the turbo, while still being labeled as a TD-05, will
have a different "trim" of compressor housing that flows 505CFM vs. approx
390CFM for the current turbo. Output was extimated at around 240-250bhp.
The Laser is likely to be dropped, and it's also quite possible that the
turbo motor will only be available in the AWD models.
I asked about a V6 option, and he said he had heard nor seen anything to
indicate that such an engine would be offered in any Talon or Eclipse.
...
Greg
[email protected]
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Subject: more timing belts
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 16:27:05 CST
From: eagle.natinst.com!howard (Howard Tsoi)
I had mine replaced by the Eagle dealer at 30K. With a lot of
complaining (have to keep taking the matter to a higher level until
someone will listen), I got is for the price of the warranty
deductable. Someone on this list told me that if you remove the
belt cover on the top of the engine, you can see the condition of
the belt. The grey plastic cover is held on with a couple of bolts.
I think the new belt I got had a different part number also. I
don't know if that is important.
Also, I saw on rec.auto that someone mentioned that the belt problem
was due to a pulley being too small. Maybe this is adding more stress
to the belt? Donno.
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Subject: Re:Timing Belts
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 22:25:22 -0500
From: orl.mmc.com!scottk
Matt Kingman writes:
>Maybe there's just a quality control problem with the belts or perhaps the
>problem is actually tensioner failure. Maybe I'm just lucky.
I think Matt's gotta good guess... In case some of you weren't list
readers when I had my timing belt problems, let me clue you in...
At about 54,000 I started hearing a flop, flop, flop noise from my engine.
It sounded like it was coming from the timing belt area of my car. I took
it to one of the local Mitsu dealers and they pulled the cover. Upon
inspection they noticed about half the teeth were missing and at one point
about 12 in a row were gone, and then he just pulled the 13th off. Do
remember that the angle the belt makes is probably only 100 degrees. They
replaced the belt, as well as the tensioners (since they are not just
spring loaded but have some kind of goop in them that just expands out but
can not be reset) and a couple of bent pulleys that they said failed because
of the looseness of the belt. I think we've all noticed the kind of whine
the <>* cars make from the timing belt. They are probably all too tight.
The list long timers may also remember the fiasco I went through with my
exhaust manifold, turbo housing, et.al... Well after I got it back after
the initial repair, I returned with complaints of water and oil leaks, and
mentioned that I thought the belt sounded too tight. They charged me $50
to tell me I needed a new oil drain hose from the turbo to the pan, and
they would have to charge me $220 to find the water leak because they would
have to remove the head. They also said the belt was fine. I said gimme
my car back and took it to a personal mechanic. He noticed, after removing
only the manifold heat sheild, that when they drilled the cracked stud coming
out of the head that holds the exhaust manifold on, they slipped and drilled
a hole through my head into a water jacket ( hence the water leak ) and just
gooped up the hole and srewed the replacement screw in. Also they had
simply
left off the 2 gaskets on the oil drain hose (hence the oil leak). He also
agreed that the timing belt sounded too tight.
So back I went...
They replaced the head (and for some reason the injectors and the injector
computer) and they put the gaskets on the oil drain pipe, and as the mechanic
was test driving the car, he drove by a wall and thought he heard a funny
noise. ANY GUESSES??? Yup, that's right, the timing belt tensioner was BENT
and they replaced it too. All the above cost them about $3000. If they had
charged me for all this it would have been higher!
Anyway, to longer make a long story, I think Matt is correct in the assumption
that the tensioners are putting too much strain on the belt/pulleys/cam gears
etc. causing PREPREPREmature wear of these items. Those of you who have
had
the belts break, see if, in fact, you have any break unrelated parts on your
invoice such as pulleys and gears and the like.
Re: tires or wheels or something like that...
For those of you who where curious about my claim that Eclipse GSX wheels
were 6.5 inches wide instead of 6, I called PSI, who originally told me
this and asked them again. Again they assured me that they are, in fact,
6.5 inches wide. Although you would think if the wheel has 6JJ stamped on
the side of it, it is 6 inch. I'm gonna try washing all the scunge of the
inside of my wheels and case it. If it is 6 inch, I will probably reduce
my tire size from the current 225 series to 215 or so.
New Clutch!!!
Finally after 71,000 VERY hard driven miles, Mr. clutch decided it had had
enough. For those of you who are not familiar with how a clutch dies (I was
one of you) let me explain. Get thee to about 3000 rpms (right on the hairy
edge of torquedom) in third or fourth. Plant right foot. Watch your rpms zoom
up to around 5000 (your are now leaving torquedom), hold there for about a
second while the clutch starts to grab and the speed of the car increases to
match the speed of the engine, then normal to redline. Max torque in first
or second does not strain a clutch as much as third or fourth since in first
or second the car gives (accelerates) easier. Eventually all gears begin to
slip. The afore mentioned mechanic installed my new, PSI built, performance
clutch. They maintain that this clutch is just as good as a Centerforce, but
much cheaper ($250? w/pressure plate, I forget exactly). When the mechanic
removed my pressure plate and inspected the fingers that contact the throw-
out
bearing, he noticed a nice deep grove with a matching groove in the bearing.
The clutch surface was worn almost to the rivots. He had to have the flywheel
turned (per the clutch installation instructions). We have a stepped flywheel
which is a wee bit more $ to turn, and it's kinda hard to find a place with the
equipment.
I must say that this sucker does grab. What I don't like about it is that
the clutch goes from disengage to engage in about 3/4" - 1". And it does
so at the very top part of pedal travel. So it's rather impossible to get
a smooth shift. When you engage the clutch a little, it grabs immediately,
accelerating the car out from under your foot, which makes for rather
abrupt starts. While trying not to drag race launch the car, I try to
feather the clutch and gas, but the car ends up lurching. Having the air on
just compounds this problem. So I just stand on it! Same in second and third.
The grab is so brutal that the whole car bucks hard upon release. When the air
is on, during second and third shifts, the car just kind of shudders when the
clutch is engaged. It'll take some getting used to.
One last item:
How in THE HELL did I get a Toyota Camry compressor on my car? Nobody
ever
charged me for one. The A/C mechanic must have accidently slipped it on
there
when he replaced my A/C clutch a year back. Lucky me though because my
compressor was getting tight... It works just fine...
by the way, it got up to 84 here in Orlando today...
hee hee
Scott Krywick, martian [email protected]
Martin Marietta Electronic Systems
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Subject: Re: Paint Damage
From: Darren Reiniger <ug.cs.dal.ca!reiniger>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 10:01:01 -0400
I've used this Color Polish on my Talon, and have found it does
help a bit. I have a few minor scratches near the bottom of the
driver's door, and when I apply the polish, it seems to just color
the scratch from the white/greyish color which is beneath the paint
to Blue (my car color). It does make it much harder to see
the scratch, which is nice, but I've found the polish wears off
after a matter of a week or 2.
On my father's black Olds, he had a large cat scratch on the front
hood, and applying some of the polish really made a large difference
though. Shoulda bought an Olds... NOT! :-)
Speaking of nicks, has anyone found a really good way to go about
touching them up? On my back panel, I have a fairly deep scratch, and
after sanding the area down, and applying some touch up paint from
the dealer, it's improved, but I still think it could be better.
Any recommendations?
Darren
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Subject: Survey for Timing Belt Woes?
From: mcdmail1.fwrdc.rtsg.mot.com!planger (Paul Langer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 11:10:22 CST
Greetings everyone,
Since it seems like a lot of people have horror stories about
timing belts, may I suggest someone conduct a simple survey.
Three questions would suffice:
1. Have you ever had a problem with the timing belt?
2. How many miles did you have (or do have) on your car?
3. What model of car do you have?
Perhaps we could put this in the archive? In the future maybe we
could also do other surveys such as clutch/turbo/transmission/turbo
etc. problems versus mileage at the time the problem occured. I know
this is a lot of work. Anyone like to volunteer? I'm an RF engineer
not a software engineer so I'd have a tough time at it trying to
sort and collate email.
~Paul
~email: [email protected]
~90 GS Turbo
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Subject: Re:Timing Belts
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 18:53:48 CST
From: eagle.natinst.com!howard (Howard Tsoi)
Scott,
are you saying the tensioner being too tight is normal?
if it is not, then you can tell by listenning whether it
is set correctly?
That reminded me of something. When they replaced my belt,
they did not align the timing marks correctly the first time.
The car starts and runs, but it shook and growled at certain
rpm's. When I got the car back the second time, it didn't
shake anymore, but it didn't sound the same as before either.
There are times when there is a itsy bitsy vibration sound
when i'm accelerating. I can hear and feel it since I drive
the car everyday, but I think if I took it in and try to show
someone, they would be saying "yeah? cars will develop vibrations
when they get old." -or something along that line. Maybe they're
right also. Anyone got a good way to isolate the problem?
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Subject: Re: Survey for Timing Belt Woes?
Date: 14 Jan 1993 07:11:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Ed Begley @ NIST" <ENH.NIST.GOV!BEGLEY>
I'd like to suggest a fourth question, at least.
4. How would you describe your driving style?
Ed
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Subject: *Paintless* Dent Removal by Ding Doctor
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 09:24:34 PST
From: xerox.com!ARMAND_A._AQUINO.Henr801B
Hello,
Have you ever heard of a paintless ding removal system? They also don't even
take the panel off which makes me believe that they must suck the living hell
out of the metal-without damaging the paint. You see, I had just come from
vacation and found out that I have been dinged twice. It's very noticeable and
it bothers the living hell out of me. The cost is $89 and $31 for any other
dings on the same panel. This place is called the Ding Doctor.
What do you think?
Armand [email protected]
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Subject: Re: Re:Timing Belts
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 07:02 EST
From: PETE SILVESTRE <LANDO.HNS.COM!PSILVESTRE>
>From: eagle.natinst.com!howard (Howard Tsoi)
>
> When they replaced my belt,
> they did not align the timing marks correctly the first time.
I have a similar story. My non-turbo 2.0l Eclipse broke its timing
belt at 47k. After they replaced it there was a noticable vibration
that could be felt through the steering wheel, it seemed to have a
couple of resonance points at certain RPM's (mostly high) that
made it real bad. I brought it back a second time but I had no proof
that the car didnt do this before I brought it in for the timing belt
and they assured me the belt was aligned correctly. They tried changing
the spark plugs but that didnt help. In the end it just gave up and
traded in the car (it was 3 years old at that point) on a 3000GT (from
a different dealership!) Hope you have better luck...
Pete Silvestre
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Subject: Re: Flat tire on 92 Talon
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 11:34 EST
From: GREG GRANVILLE <arlvax.psu.edu!GAG>
>Will the plugged tire be reliable?
Small holes thru the belts don't really have a major effect on the
integrity of the tire. It should be OK.
[Do *not* rely on a plugged tire. Get it patched instead. -talon mgr]
>what amount
>of torque should I use?
Torque the lug nuts to between 80 and 100 ft/lbs. I torque mine to 80
ft/lbs, and I always use anti-sieze compond on the threads. The anti-
sieze also lubricates the threads and allows you to get a much more
accurate torque application.
Greg
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Subject: Engine mounts ?
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 12:25 EST
From: GREG GRANVILLE <arlvax.psu.edu!GAG>
Been meaning to ask about this for awhile... Has anyone noticed a
certain amount of engine mount play (on the roll axis) when creeping along
in stop and go traffic in 1st gear? This has bugged me for some time.
The throttle is fairly touchy at slow speeds in first gear, and if it
isn't treated very gently, a "bucking" effect occurs.
Perhaps this is typical. Has anyone else noticed this tendency?
(Maybe my engine mounts have turned to jello :-))
Greg