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Towards an Indian Orchestra: Interview with Vishnudas Shirali B.C.DEVA Presented hue isan edited transcript ofthe interview conducted on 12March 1974by B.C.Deva, then AssutanJSecretaryoftheSangeetNalakAkademi.M:;rhVishnudasShirali.eminentmusicianandmusicdirector. Thetranscriptofthediscurslvecom'errol;o"bet'ri't't7Zlhet'MIOhasbuneditedforthepurposeofpublication. R.C. Deva: Pandit Shirali, I must first congratulate you on receiving the Sangeet Natak Akademi'sAward for CreativeMusic.Thisawardhasaspecialsignificance becauseyou are the first to havebeenawarded for something off the track ofHindustani or Camatic classical music. For lack of a better word we have called it creative music though, of course,allmusiciscreative.Iwould liketotalktoyouaboutthenewtrendsandwhatyou feel about them.The first question that Iwould like to ask you is: what do youthink of the attitude to Indian music outside the country.and theeffect ofWestern musicon us? VishnudasShirali:Overthe lastquartercentury,Indian music hasgainedquiteanappre ciable audienceoutside India.Anumber oftopmusicianshave beengiving musicperfor mances,teachingIndianmusicindifferentuniversities.andgivinglecture-demonstrations abroad, There has been a lot of cultural exchange at university level, and a number of scholarships have been given by foreign educational institutions for studyingdance and music in India.More and more studentsand professors fromabroad havecome to India to learn and do research work in Indian fine arts. On their return to their countries they have helped to create, directly and indirectly, a more favourable attitude to our music through their talksand perfomances. Formerly, during 1930-39, when we weretouring Europe, U.S.A. and Canada with Uday Shankar's company ofdancers arid musicians, the conditions were entirely differ ent Ours was asortofpioneeringwork. Deva:Yes,Iremember. Shirali: The attitudeto our musicat thattimewas more ofcuriositythanunderstanding, especiallyduring 1930-34,theinitialyears.Buttheyfeltenthusiasticandwanted to learn howtoappreciateourdance andmusic.Theirears were notaccustomedtoourmusic.Our frequent visits to these countries for nine years, giving dance and music performances. paved the wayforourdancersandmusicians to go abroadin thepost-independenceperi od and giveperformancesindependently.This isnot asmallachievement. SangulNeuakNo.110:October- December1993 TOWARDSANINDIANORCHESTRA 15 Deva:Ithashelped the new generation agreatdeal. Now Iwould like to ask youabout theeffectofWestern music on us. Shirali:Itisabigfield.Youknowthai therearequiteanumberofmusiciansinourcoun try whohavestudiedWesternmusicandwealso havesomeexcellentperformingartists. Thereisquite alargeaudience in ourcountrywho understandandappreciateWestern classical music. More widely, theeffectof Westernmusic is foundverymuch in our commercialfilms.Itisnotformetosaywhetheritisdesirableorotherwise.Butwemust admit thatourcommercial filmindustryhas affordedagreatscopeto musicians. music arrangersandtofilmmusicdirectors whoaretrainedinWestern music.Asformyself,I verymuchenjoylistening to thesymphony,although IhavenotstudiedmuchofWestern music.ButItrained my earsto appreciateWestern classicalmusic. byattending agreat manymusicconcertsduring mynine-yearstayabroad. Deva: Iquite agree that the films have taken up Western music andthey do usea lotof tonecolourand tonemassandsuchthings whichwenormallydonotgetinIndianclas sicalmusic.Butwhatreally ison my mind is the problemoforchestration.I would like toknowwhether orchestrationofragasispossibleat all. Shirali:I feel that orchestration ofragas, i.e.orchestration in Indian classical music, is possibleandtoacertain extent,canbepermissible.Iforchestrationmeans instrumental soundsofvarious timbre andtonesblended incharacteristic combination,to produce a varietyoftonecolour.itispossibletohaveharmonyinourmusic.When Isayharmony, weshouldnottake theword asmeaningexactlywhatitisintheWest.Generally,Iwould say, it means forming a sort of counterpoint achieved through the superimposition of melodicpassages with different groups of musical instruments. Inaddition to theparent melody,anumberofmini-melodies couldbeplacedinthecomposition.asifwere, hav ingallthecharacteristics oftheparent melody,butstillpossessing adistinctly individual qualityoftheirown.Inaddition,onecanportray fourseparatemovementsbyvaryingpat ternsbasedonasthayi, amara, sanchari andabhog. Therecouldalso be variousother methodsofevolvingan Indiansystem of orchestration.In the experimentalstage,itmay beeasiertouse ragas selectedfrom the 12-notescale,so that wedon'tcomeunder the .influenceofSrutis, Ragas based on the 12-nore scale do not use the Srutis. A tempered scaletherefore gives scope forcreating identical intervals,inanychordfrom onepointof ISsue,and simplifies the placing of chords from the key note to another. Later, perhaps, ~e~ayexperimentwithragasusing the22-Srutiscale.SincetheSrutiintervalsarenon IdentIcal,the22-Sruliscale limits the placementof chords from one key notetoanother. Deva: Yes.It isavery importantpoint. ShiraH:When shifting ofkey is applied to give colour to the composition, the relation ?"t~een thechanged key and the valuationofothernotes willautomatically change and rtWIllsound outoftune due to the incorrect Sruti relation, especiallyfor our audiences andourmusicians. Deva:Indeed. . 16 B.C.DEVA Shirali: Itisaknown factthat thecontinuous sounding ofthekeynote,orthedrone, is thebasisofourmusicandagainstthis,theshiftingofkey istriedoutwithinacertainlimit. Naturally,constantvigilancewill benecessarytomaintaintheSrutirelation withthekey noteifand when it isshifted. The shiftingofkey need not necessarilybe there; itmaybe employedonly when one feels like it. Now comesthequestion of harmony, Introduction of harmony as understood in the Westwilldepriveourmusicofitsmostnotable andunique feature. Thisisnotmerelyan issueofprestigebutamatterofspiritandcharacterofourmusic,andIwouldratherstrict ly adhere toit.Conflictsbetweenthenewandwhatisconsidered traditionalhasexisted ineveryformofart, anditischaracteristicofeachepoch.Fromsuchconflictemergesa fresh type of art basedon the traditional system, but embracing, assimilating and giving shapeandform tothenewtrends. Therefore, Ifeel,orchestration inIndianmusicand,to acertain extent, ofragas, couldbeperrnissible andpossiblebecauseofitsvastscopeto expresshumanemotionsthroughadifferentmedium. ButIwouldlike to make one point clear, thatourclassicalmusicshouldremainintact, untouchedbyanymodemandexter nalmusicalinfluence. EvenifIshouldcomeunderthisinfluence,Imustbestopped... Deva: Pretty honest, Imust say! Shirali:Andorchestrationandorchestralmusicshouldbetreatedasanindependentmedi urnofexpression, togrowalongwithourtraditional aspect. Deva: Ah, good! Shirali: I am sure that after many years of trial and error, we shouldbe able to evolvea techniquefromourexperimentsinthisdirectionandgraduallyanIndianorchestraltradi tion may be built. Our music has greatpotentialfor development along orchestral lines. Givenproper understanding andopportunities fordevelopment, it canblossom as an extraordinary medium of expression withinfinitescope forvariety basedon materials accumulatedthroughthecenturies. Deva: I shouldsay ithas been a very refreshingpointofview on the problemoforches tration. Beforetaking upotherpoints,Iwouldlike toask you one thing. Asfar asIunder stand theWestern musicalmaterial, itisgenerally dividedintopuremusicandthepro grammatic. I would like you to tell me whether programmatic music is possible with Indianragas. ShiraIi: Yes,Iwouldsayitispossible.Asyou know, inthe 1920sleadingmusiciansused tosing aKhayal for one-and-a-halfhoursortwo hours, and the durationofaconcertused tobethe whole night. Present-day concertsgenerallylasthardlyfourhours. Still further, All India Radio allots only one-and-a-halfhours for a full concert. And this, too, gives scope forthe musiciantoexhibithis talentsand providesafairly full entertainmenttothe listener. This means 40 minutesfor a VilambitKhayal, 20minutesfor a DrutKhayal, 15 minuteseach for aTaranaandThumri.Inotherwords,thepresent-dayartisthasadjusted himselfand shortened the exposition ofa raga and the Khayal to the requirement. This process may gradually lead to programmatic music in Indian ragas. It couldbecome an exampleoftheessenceofaragaperformedby ahighlytrainedand talentedvocalistoran uif:,,; ....'...\ ;~i I)~,\ ;i"1:..-'~"-~ i.,;.,- .. ,..t." lld l -'-~·-·~·r' ;.~X ~ TOWARDSANL"DlANORCllESlRA ') 7. ' ... .:".I -. ~\. 'A • . • instrumentalis~whichcanberepeatedinthesameordereverytimewiththesameKhayal,':~~;;> :--. samepassagesandimprovisation.ButwehavetorememberthatnomatterhowmuchWe haveprogrammaticmusic.inoursystemthecharacteristicinspirationalextemporeimpro- visationofaragacannotbereplaced.Onemay callmeold-fashioned, butthis willremain soforafew musicallydrugged listeners likeus who wouldnotmind anyamountoftime takenbyan A-classmusician toelaborate aragawithnumerousanddelicatevariations. Deva:Quiteright.ButorchestrationisamajornewforcethathascomeintoIndianmusic. Nopartofhumanlife orcreation is everstatic. So. while one neednotbe afraidofnew influences. thequestion is whethersomething new ishealthyforus.orwhether itwill destroywhat wethinkisa beautiful music thatwe havegrown up with. Shirafi:True.While all thatisold is notgold,all thatisnewisnotnecessarily beautiful. Deva:Thatis whatwe have to find out,especially from yousinceyouhave been associ atedwiththeclassicaltradition and you have also strucka new path.Irememberthe film Kalpana, of which, if am not mistaken, you were the music director.I don't know how manytimesIsawitandIstill have therecordsathome.Iwouldthereforeliketogetmore ofyourviewsonthissubjectoforchestrationandharmony,Doesitnecessarilyimplytern peringandtransposition? Canharmonybereally takenovertoragas? Shirali: It isa vel)' difficult question. But, in short, Ican say that we should not think in Westernterms or of Western orchestra. We think now of an Indian orchestra Though we haveadopteditfromtheWest,wehave changedit:whether togoodorbadisadifferentthing. EveninwithWest,inthebeginningtheymusthavestartedalsoinunison-thechurch musicand all that. Gradually, after years of experimenting, they added more and more instruments. Manypeople ask Why do we need orchestras in India when wehavegotourclassical music which islike anocean.Solo singing orinstrumentalmusic inourtraditiontakes yearsofstudy to reach certain standards, and one life isnotquitesufficient. So,what the soloistOrtheclassical peoplesayisnotunreasonable.Butwhenthefutureisbringingin Westernmusicatfull blast,is itnot necessary forustoprepare ourselves? Youngpeople ofthe modem generation want Western music, They ask why not community singing, whynotcommunity instruments? Deva: Yes,thatisafashionnow.Ofcourse,wecansay."Idon'tbelongtothis." Shirali:Butwe have tolivein this world and the future iscomingtous,whetherwe like itornot.We have to solve theirproblemasourproblem. Inn:Right. Shlrali:Ithereforethought,likesomeotherswhofeellikeme,thatweshouldprepareour OWnorchestration, nomaller how andwhat way,preservingour traditionand keepingthe IndiancharacterofOUr music,The experiments, good or bad, will bedone by many dif ferentpeople.Oncethegroundworkisprepared,wecan buildonthat,infuture,anorches trathatwillsatisfythegenerationstocome andprovideguidelinesforthem.Thathasbeen myapproach.It will notbeidenticalwith Western orchestration. 18 B.C.DEVA Deva:You see, Panditji,theproblemisthis.You will surelyagreethattheragaisnotjust 12tones.Even 22Srutis,eventhere itisnot tempered to 22 intervals. Shirali:Iagree. Deva: The fundamental question is of different Srutis being employed. After all, the komal dhaivat of Asavari is not the dhaivatof Bhairavi orBhairavorDarbari. So, how everweltyoutuneaharmoniumoranytemperedinstrument,youcanneverproducethis. Thesecondpointis: what aboutGamakas?TakeDarbari. Shirall: Yes.Gamakaisveryimportant. Deva:Withoutandolit gandharDarbari is no Darbari. Or you take Kamatak Todi. They havetwokomalgandhars:oneistheusual sadharana ghandharam and theothertheToo gandluJram. Ifwe omitthis, the raga doesn't remain Todi.Ifwe omit Gamaka it doesn't remainDarbari. Howarewe going to getthis outofaninstrumentalcombination?Isit possible atall? Shirali:Thatisagood question.ButI thinkit will notbe verydifficult. Thedifficultyis only because we havestillgOIthe Western orchestra in ourmind. Deva:Isee. Shirali: Suppose we want to orchestratein Rag Tool. What will I do?I will have many instruments: say, fourorfive Sitars, four or five Sarods, andabouta dozen violins. Sarangis can't cope witlr-eechestration because of their system of playing with syrnpa theticstrings. Deva:Yes,Iwas going10 askyou whether all this tarab will not be a bigdisturbance. Shirali: That is why we have to have anew approach. I dealt with this question in my paper atthe MadrasMusicAcademy.We must keepoutthe instruments withsympathet· ic strings.Then weusecellos,flutesandsomanyotherinstruments whichare nottem pered. Deva:Ah,thatis the point. Shirali:Temperedinstrumentscannot beused. You know the difference whenan Indian trainedmusicianplaysthesameinstrument. Deva;Oh,yes! Shirali:Itisbecausethere isnodemand thatwefind noforeigncelloplayerwho will play Indian music. Deva:True,and ifhe hears the celloplayed by an Indianmusician,Ithinkhe will bevery happy to hear it. Shirali: Certainly.Thus,from suchinstruments we can make ourIndianorchestration. It isnot necessary forustohavechords. TOWARDSANINDIANORCHESTRA 19 Deva:That'safine point. ShiraU:Wecan remove those things,andit isnot necessarytocrossallthe melodies. Deva: Which means we need not completely take over harmonisation and the idea of counterpoint. Shirali:No,notnecessary at all. When we work inthis field andwegoonsolvingeach problematevery stage,we maydevelop an Indian polyphony. Deva:Yes. ShiraU:AnIndianpolyphonynot necessarily-I would saydefinitelynot-taki~guptem perament. And wecan developourowntransposition, whichwillbeofadifferentkind. Deva:Whetheritcanbedoneisaveryinterestingquestion. Shirali:It can be done in India. Only, unfortunately, withnut a laboratory, you can't do anyexperiment. I have beenthinking of this question afterretiringfrom FilmsDivision. IthoughtIwould create a smallunit inBombay. Every Sundaywewouldgathertogeth er.Butinourgreat countrythat isnotpossible,becauseour egosclash. Deva:OhGod!Eachone wants to become a hit. Shlrali: Including Shirali! Deva:Oh,yes.Everyoneofus.So how can webreak itup?And then,toexperimenton orcbestration,youneed a lab.You need atleast 10to20musiciansall thetime.But, you know,therearesomeestablished groups. Whyshouldtheynottakeitup?Therearepeo plewhoarealreadywellpaidandtheyaresupposedtoproduceorchestrasandtheyshould produceone.Theyget theirsalaries forthat.Theyshoulddoit.OtherwiseIdon'tseeany wayout. YouCanhave aSitar alone in a room and go ondoing riyaz:Nobodycanstop you.Butorchestra is agroup activity. Shirali: Yes,the momentyoustartthinking oforchestras, therearetwentyto 100people. Theymustbefed.You may bewilling tostarve,butthey maynotbe. Deva:Thatisright. And now Iwill come totheother majorquestion,andthatisthehar moniumanditsusein'Indianmusic. Shirali:Theharmoniumisoneofthe thingsthathascometoIndianmusicfromtheWest. ! haveattended somediscussionsonthequestion whetheritisasuitableaccomp~mcnt in aclassical vocal concert.Theopinionswere, asusual,some for and ~ome against. ] myselffeelthatonemayusetheharmonium asasoloinstrument;someofourwellknown musicianshaveacquired mastery overthis instrumentand havegivensoJoprogrammes. ButIdofeel uncomfortable when theharmonium isplayed as anaccompanyinginstru mentforclassicalvocal music.Ourears, accustomed tohearingthenuancesoftheragas. willsurelyfeelthedifference.Therecan beacompromiseonlyatthecostofreducingthe values,andthecharacterofthedelicate Srutis ofourraga system. 20 B.C.DEVA Wehavebeentoldthatsomeofthegreatmusiciansofthepastusedtheharmoniumas accompanimentintheirvocalconcerts.butthatshouldnotbeacriterion. Gettingusedto thetemperednotes of ahannonium---even a22-Sruti scale harmonium-will make our earlesssensitivetotheuniqueSrutis ofourragas. Deva:Thatisanexcellentstatement. Shirali:IfwehearDarbari Kanadaontheharmoniumwhileaccompanyingavocalist,and do notfeel the difference,then wehave had it. Deva: We havebeen havingitanyway. Wehave reallymadeacompromise. Theques tioniswhetherwecanafford suchacompromise. Shirali: Wecannot.Infact,Idonotapprove oftheuseoftheharmonium evenasanaid forteaching classicalmusictochildren. Deva: I am so glad you have said that. It iskilling the soul of the childrenat the source, before they grow up. But do you really think the harmonium has any use even as a solo instrument? Itcannotproduce Gamakas, andwhatisthepointofhavingsuchaninstru mentforIndianmusic? Shirali:Whatyousayistrue.Irecall that,inoneofthe discussions on the useofthehar monium, somebody said; 'You see, Fayyaz Khan Sahib used to have a harmonium, and so did Abdul Karim Khan.' The only remark I could make was: 'Just because Swami Vivekananda smoked, does it make smoking ahealthyhabit?' Let me refer to an incident withinmy personal experience.I once askedVilayat Hussain Sahib: 'Khan Sahib, why do you use a harmonium?' He replied: 'Beta, kaun suntahai?' ('My dear boy, who hears it?') Now, if you don'thear the harmonium, why haveit? Deva: Finally Panditji, Iwouldlike you tospeak about yourown guru, VishnuDigambar Paluskar. What have you gathered from him, and what do you think is his majorcontri bution? Shirali: PanditVishnu DigarnbarPaluskarwasmy favourite guru. Forme, he wasmusic personified. Music isnotalltechnique, itlies beyondand penetratesyourheartandhead. Itinspires. That is the impression ofVishnu Digarnbar which I carry with me. I had the opportunityofbeing constantlynearhimforsevenyears.hearinghimteachingseniorstu dents, performing inthe music conferences andpuhlic concerts, and doing his daily rou tineofswara sadhana andpractice. Hewasagreat vocalistwithavoice of exceptional quality; astrictdisciplinarian;andamanoftremendouspersonalityanddignity,ofunder standing andvision.Heopened myearstotheapproachtoclassicalHindustanimusic, and gave me the vision to experiment with appliedmusic with a classical background. This gave me the guidelines for my entire life and careerin the field ofcomposing music for dances, dance-dramas, filmsandorchestrationinourmusic. . Vishnu Digambarcreated an awakening which promotedrespectfor and appreciation ofclassicalmusic;hewasthepioneerinintroducingmusicineducationalinstitutionsand TOWARDSANINDIANORCHESTRA 21 amongeducatedfamiliesatatimewhenmusicandmusicianswerelookeddownuponand werekeptaway from cultured circles.Hemaynothavecreated vocalistswhocould sing exactly like himself but taught and inspired a few students of his with the essence of classicalmusic. Hecreated acadreofmusicians topropagatehisprinciples andtoprepare a field for 'Kansens' (discriminating listeners) if not Tansens (after the name of the legendary musician). Vishnu Digambarmade a greatcontributionto thecauseof Indian music, and Hindustaniclassicalmusicinparticular. Deva: Yes,his vision was truly great, as a teacher. Ifyou don'ttrain students properly, cantheyidentifyagoodconcert?Imean.ifthey don'tknowwhatisTOOi Gandhar,what is Kafi Gandhar, can they identify a good concert? That leads me to ask you: what do you think ofour system of music education? Itcreates teachingjobs,awards diplomas. Butisitadequa.te? Shirali:Thewhole systemis,Ifeel,influencedby the fact that ourcountry isyoung asa freenation,We feel wehavetobedemocratic. soeveryonemusthavehisfreedom. We don'tliketheoldtraditionalway ofteachingor rigorousteaching: 'You can'tdothis,you can'tdothat,youcan'tgoout,you rehearseand you practise.' Afterfreedomwethought: 'Letusbreak away from this.Iwant todo as Iwant.' That ishoweverybodyistryingto .become a teacher. Day before yesterday, I met somebody who has learnt something- dance ormusic-for two years. and thatperson would like to startaschool. Eventwo yearsistoomuchforhim.Thisisthe approachin the wholeeducational system,notonly music. Deva:Yes,everywhere.Thingsareinaturmoil, Shirali:Hence thequestionofTansenand Kansen.Vishnu Digambartriedtocreategood, discriminatinglisteners.hewantedtomakearevolutionoftheYuga,orCentury. Deva:Iquiteunderstand. Shirali:It wasunfortunatethat hedid not haveperhapstherightsortofmaterial.Butwe arethinkingnot so much about that asofthe radiation that thegreatmangenerated.Iam notaparty man.I don'tbelong to one party.I belong to a party which creates, which is intune. Deva:Ithink that isan excellentthing.Thesocialenvironmentisunfortunatelysuchthat WeeveninOUfscience;inourmusic,wewanttogetadegreeeasily.Andforthatweare payingthepenally.Iam SOvery glad. Panditji,thatyoucameandthat wehavehadafine, Open-mindeddiscussion.Thankyou very much. 0