The response of Catholic Church authorities in the Maitland-Newcastle region to allegations of chil

91 Pages·2016·0.95 MB·English

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO INSTITUTIONAL
RESPONSES TO CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE

Public Hearing - Case Study C43
(Day C169)

Newcastle Court House,
343 Hunter Street, Newcastle
Court Room 6.1

On Tuesday, 6 September 2016 at 10.30am

Before:

The Chair: Justice Peter McClellan AM
Commissioner: Mr Robert Atkinson OA APM
Commissioner: Mr Andrew Murray

Counsel Assisting: Mr Stephen Free
Ms Stacey Hahn

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1 <ALEXIS KEITH TURTON, on former oath: [10.30am]
2
3 <EXAMINATION BY MR FREE CONTINUING:
4
5 MR FREE: Q. Brother Alexis, you were asked some
6 questions yesterday by his Honour about conversations you
7 had had with Marist Brothers and any of those conversations
8 which had led to them making admissions in relation to
9 child sexual abuse. Overnight, you were provided with a
10 list by the Royal Commission, through your lawyers, of
11 Marist Brothers who had been the subject of a complaint or
12 a claim at one point; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. You were asked to go through that list and to do two
16 things - firstly, to mark all of those to whom you spoke
17 for the purpose of discussing allegations of having
18 committed child sexual abuse, and you marked those Brothers
19 with a "D"; is that right?
20 A. That's correct.
21
22 Q. And you were also asked, of those people that you'd
23 spoken to, which of them had admitted some or all of the
24 allegations that you put to them and you marked those
25 people with an "A"; is that right?
26 A. Yes, that's correct.
27
28 Q. Can I show you a document, please. Brother Alexis, is
29 that the document that I've just been describing, with your
30 handwritten annotations?
31 A. Yes, that's the document.
32
33 Q. So you've marked a series of Ds and As?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 MR FREE: Your Honour, I have given a copy to my learned
37 friends who act for the Marist Brothers. I understand
38 Mr Skinner, who acts for Brother Alexis, has retained a
39 copy. Could I ask, please, that that document be given to
40 your Honour. I have copies for the Commissioners, if that
41 would assist. I don't propose to tender it at this point,
42 your Honour.
43
44 THE CHAIR: Why not?
45
46 MR FREE: If it is to be tendered, it would certainly need
47 to be subject to a non-publication order, your Honour.

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17971 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1 There will be need to be inquiries made about the contents
2 of the list and the annotations. I'm content to tender it
3 if it is subject to a non-publication order.
4
5 THE CHAIR: No. The list itself, the primary list, is
6 obtained from what record?
7
8 MR FREE: It is a list that has been generated by the
9 Commission using data provided by the Marist Brothers.
10
11 THE CHAIR: Of what?
12
13 MR FREE: Of people who have been the subject of one or
14 more claims or substantiated complaints received by the
15 Marist Brothers, so that people on the list are --
16
17 THE CHAIR: There are 154 names on the list; is that
18 right.
19
20 MR FREE: Yes, your Honour.
21
22 THE CHAIR: Then I don't know how many it is that have
23 been marked with a D, but it is a very substantial number.
24
25 MR FREE: Yes, your Honour.
26
27 THE CHAIR: Do we know how many?
28
29 MR FREE: I don't know.
30
31 THE CHAIR: Q. Do you know how many you marked with a D?
32 A. I'm sorry, I didn't count them, your Honour.
33
34 THE CHAIR: We'll count them. Then there are 10 that have
35 been marked with an A, as I see the list I have here.
36 I will hold on to this list at this stage. The inquiries
37 can be made. Ultimately, in some form, we, the
38 Commissioners, will need this in evidence.
39
40 MR FREE: Yes, your Honour, we will have some discussions
41 about the form.
42
43 Q. Thank you, Brother Alexis. I was asking you some
44 questions at the end of the hearing yesterday afternoon in
45 relation to [CQY] and you had talked about the conversation
46 you had had with Father Lucas - was it Father Lucas and
47 Father Usher in relation to [CQY]?

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17972 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1 A. Yes. I'm not sure about Father Usher, as I said, but
2 I think for some of them Father Usher was there, some not.
3
4 Q. Their advice was that you didn't need to confront
5 Brother Patrick about [CQY]'s allegations. Is it correct
6 that one of their reasons for that advice, or one of the
7 reasons given to you, was that there were no other
8 complaints that had been received in relation to
9 Brother Patrick; is that right?
10 A. I don't recall them saying that, no.
11
12 Q. Did they give as a reason for that advice that
13 Brother Patrick was being adequately supervised?
14 A. Sorry, could I just --
15
16 Q. Did they also give as a reason for that advice - so
17 their advice was that you didn't need to confront
18 Brother Patrick; is that right?
19 A. That's right, yes.
20
21 Q. Did they give as a reason for that advice that he was
22 being adequately supervised? If it assists,
23 Brother Alexis, I think you deal with this topic in
24 paragraph 50 of your statement.
25 A. Thank you. Yes, had I checked that, that's correct,
26 yes.
27
28 Q. Thank you. Did you understand after that conversation
29 that their position - that is, the position of Father Lucas
30 and possibly Father Usher - might be subject to change if
31 it transpired that either Brother Patrick wasn't being
32 supervised or if there were any other complaints?
33 A. No, I left that meeting on the understanding that they
34 were happy with that situation. If anything else were to
35 come up, that I would notify them.
36
37 Q. So you left with an expectation that you would notify
38 them of anything else?
39 A. Oh, yes, yes.
40
41 Q. Can I ask you, please, about a complaint that was
42 brought to you in relation to [CNJ]. Do you know the
43 individual I'm referring to there?
44 A. I'm sorry, I can't identify --
45
46 Q. [CNJ] is about a third of the way down the list?
47 A. I'm sorry, I might be on the wrong one. Yes, [CNJ],

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17973 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1 yes.
2
3 Q. A complaint was brought to your attention by [CNJ] in
4 about August of 1992; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. That came to you via the headmaster at Marist Brothers
8 Hamilton?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. Can we have a look, please, at the document behind
12 tab 41. Have you got that there, Brother Alexis?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. The date of this letter in the top right-hand corner
16 seems to be 3 September 1992. Can you read the annotation
17 just in the top right corner of that first page?
18 A. "Letter from the young man I spoke to you about."
19
20 Q. What's the name that appears under that?
21 A. I'm not exactly sure, but it may be Brother Kenneth.
22 It doesn't look like a "Brother" or an "H", but my memory
23 struggles to identify the person.
24
25 Q. I think the principal of Marist Brothers Hamilton at
26 the time was Brother Kenneth Moreland?
27 A. That's it. Yes, that's correct, I agree.
28
29 Q. It seems from this letter that he had already spoken
30 to you about the young man in question and this letter was
31 actually from [CNJ]; is that right?
32 A. Yes. Yes.
33
34 Q. Do you remember what Brother Kenneth told you about
35 [CNJ] when he first contacted you?
36 A. I really can't even remember that call. I'm just
37 relying on what's in the note there and the man himself.
38
39 Q. Thank you. Can you turn over to the next document,
40 which is tab 42. You might remember that I took you to
41 this document yesterday for the part that related to [CQY]
42 and I will bring you down in a moment to ask you about the
43 [CNJ] section. Firstly, just dealing with this document
44 more generally, do you know why you produced this document
45 in September of 1992?
46 A. I believe it was for a summary to go to our
47 representatives as to the people who had brought complaints

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17974 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1 at that time.
2
3 Q. You mean to your legal representatives?
4 A. Yes. Yes, I think so. I'm not sure of that, but
5 that's - when I look at it, it was summarising it for that
6 purpose.
7
8 Q. Do you remember if there was any particular process
9 that meant that your legal representatives required this
10 kind of summary?
11 A. No, I can't remember, other than that.
12
13 Q. Thank you. If we just come down towards the bottom of
14 the first page, there's a section where his name has been
15 replaced with a pseudonym, but I understand [CNJ]'s name
16 was written in the margin, and you then described, at the
17 bottom of that page, the complaint that had reached you.
18 Can you please read out for the Royal Commission your
19 handwriting, just beginning at that August 1992 reference?
20 A.
21 Contacted by [the headmaster] of Hamilton.
22 Ex-student of 74-75 contacted the school
23 counsellor at [Hamilton]. Claim of "abuse"
24 at that time age about 13/14. Man only
25 realised later that [the] interactions may
26 have been abusive (not much detail but no
27 penetration, intercourse - genital??).
28 Counsellor was compassionate, told "victim"
29 of protocol and the determination of the
30 [Brothers] & the Church to address issues
31 and offer every support. The 'victim's'
32 realisation came as a result of social
33 welfare studies being undertaken.
34
35 This lack of any sense of "abuse" seems to
36 indicate not very serious interaction. No
37 request for action by [Brothers] other than
38 checking on [Brother Patrick] & vigilance.
39
40 Again I checked with the [headmaster] &
41 counsellor at [Ashgrove] and with BL & JU
42 [Brian Lucas, John Usher]. Advice from
43 them was don't confront as long as no
44 evidence or possibility of unusual
45 behaviour. [I think that's] (interaction).
46 No further action other than notification
47 of [headmaster] and [counsellor].

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17975 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1
2 Q. Brother Alexis, this was the complaint where you were
3 unsure and you made that correction to your statement about
4 whether you had spoken to Father Usher?
5 A. Yes, that's my own - the rest is fine, I'm just not
6 sure about that.
7
8 Q. If you had recorded in this file note of September
9 1992 that you had spoken to "BL" and "JU", is that likely
10 that that was accurate?
11 A. Probably, yes.
12
13 Q. Just going back to the first page where it says in
14 brackets "(not much detail but no penetration or
15 intercourse - genital??)" Does that jog your memory at all
16 as to what was reported to you about the nature of the
17 abuse?
18 A. Not really. I think - and I have another note there -
19 that he didn't go into a lot of detail and, I mean, the
20 degree of sexuality was always a concern and the fact in
21 this case was that it didn't seem to be highlighted:
22 that's in this particular case. That's the only
23 interpretation I can put on that at this stage.
24
25 Q. Do you remember anyone, either [CNJ] himself or the
26 headmaster, telling you what was actually meant to have
27 occurred involving Brother Patrick?
28 A. No, I don't have any recollection of the detail of
29 what the headmaster said, except that this person came and
30 spoke to him and was concerned. He may have used the word
31 "sexual" - I don't know - to him.
32
33 Q. Did you speak to [CNJ]?
34 A. [CNJ]? Yes, I did. Just a moment, I've got to
35 (refers to pseudonym list). Yes.
36
37 Q. Did you ask him about what had happened?
38 A. I did, and I think in my statement I said that he
39 chose not to go into a lot of detail. In fact, the course
40 he was doing, he said it was of a nature that he realised
41 he might have been being groomed.
42
43 Q. All right. Just on the second page of this note you
44 had written:
45
46 This lack of any sense of "abuse" seems to
47 indicate not very serious interaction.

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17976 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1
2 Can you just explain, please, what you meant by that?
3 A. Simply that at the time it didn't seem to be what
4 would go to the serious end of the scale of abuse and
5 sexual abuse, yes.
6
7 Q. That was an inference you were drawing from something
8 you perceived as the "lack of any sense of 'abuse'"; is
9 that right?
10 A. I would have got that from what was said to me and at
11 this stage that's all can I recall; that's what I picked
12 up.
13
14 Q. Did you feel a sense of responsibility to respond to
15 the complaint that was being brought to your attention?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Did you feel hampered by the fact that you didn't know
19 the full detail of what had occurred?
20 A. Not really, because I invited him to stay in touch,
21 respond with the counselling, offer him more counselling.
22 So I felt whatever was the issue there was going to be
23 addressed and we were ready to respond.
24
25 Q. So you were responding in that sense to the welfare
26 needs of [CNJ]?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. But in terms of managing Brother Patrick and any risk
30 he might still pose to other students, did you not feel
31 hampered by the fact that you didn't know the details of
32 what was said to have occurred?
33 A. At that stage, the management I saw for
34 Brother Patrick was the awareness, the vigilance and
35 basically following up, as was discussed with Brian Lucas
36 and probably John Usher.
37
38 Q. And that was essentially a repeat of what had happened
39 in relation to [CQY] - that you spoke to the principal and
40 the counsellor at the school?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. What did you say to them?
44 A. I'm sorry, could you just give me that again please?
45
46 Q. Yes. You effectively did again what you'd done after
47 the [CQY] complaint, which is you spoke to the principal

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17977 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1 and the counsellor of the school?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. What did you say to them?
5 A. Basically, to ensure that they had heard the earlier
6 requests clearly and that they had no concerns and the
7 supervision was taking place.
8
9 Q. What was their response?
10 A. Oh, yes, they said, "No worries at all." Just one -
11 chronologically in my head, I'm just - there was one
12 question that came up about a report of two boys which I'm
13 sure you'll come to.
14
15 Q. Yes, I will come to that in a moment.
16 A. I'm just - chronologically, I'm not sure. I think
17 that came after the --
18
19 Q. You're talking about - and I'll come to the detail of
20 it in a moment - an incident, a current incident, that
21 happened in September of 1992 where a couple of boys were
22 found in the bush in Ashgrove?
23 A. That was subsequent to this particular gentleman we're
24 talking about.
25
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. Yes, okay.
28
29 Q. So is it your recollection that you spoke to the
30 principal and the counsellor at the school in Ashgrove
31 about the [CNJ] complaints before the incident with the
32 boys in the bush?
33 A. Yes.
34
35 Q. Did you form any views yourself about the credibility
36 of [CNJ]?
37 A. [CNJ]? I was impressed with the man and I had no
38 reason to disbelieve what he was saying.
39
40 Q. You must have thought that he at least perceived these
41 incidents to be quite serious, given that he was bringing
42 them up after some 20 years.
43 A. Yes.
44
45 Q. Was he showing signs of having been somewhat
46 traumatised by the events?
47 A. I couldn't really read that. He was concerned,

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17978 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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1 certainly, but I didn't - didn't perceive great stress or
2 concern in another sense. I was impressed with him, yes,
3 and certainly different to the first man who approached me.
4
5 Q. Did you speak to Brother Patrick, around the time of
6 this complaint coming to your attention, about the
7 complaint?
8 A. I don't think so after this. I'd have to check on the
9 notes, but I don't think I did at that stage and I think
10 that was the continued advice from the two priests I spoke
11 to.
12
13 Q. There was a later occasion that I will come to,
14 Brother Alexis, where you spoke to Brother Patrick about
15 five issues at once - five complaints; do you remember
16 that?
17 A. Yes, four or five, yes.
18
19 Q. Do you have a recollection of speaking to him before
20 that about particular complaints?
21 A. I'm not sure about that. I'd have to go back -
22 I don't specifically recall that, yes.
23
24 Q. Thank you. You had some ongoing contact with [CNJ]
25 afterwards, where he was in touch in relation to his
26 counselling, for instance?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. He was, as part of that, keen to understand what was
30 happening in relation to the complaint?
31 A. Yes.
32
33 Q. What did you say to him?
34 A. Basically, that he was being well supervised by
35 appropriate people and there were no issues of concern.
36
37 Q. Did you tell him about the earlier complaint which had
38 been brought by [CQY]?
39 A. I'm not sure. No, I can't recall that. I may well
40 have. It was my practice, if people had had previous
41 complaints, if people asked, to tell them, yes.
42
43 Q. Could we have, please, the statement of
44 Brother Michael Hill. It is just in the statements folder.
45 A. Does that have a tab number?
46
47 Q. It is not in that bundle. It is the statements

.06/09/2016 (C169) C17979 A K TURTON (Mr Free)
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