Table Of Content

The Arts and the People: A Conversation with Rukrnini DeviArundale P.c.JOSHI INTRODllCTION rfirstmetRukminiDevisometimeintheearly1950sat3.EastParkRoad.NewDelhi.theresidence ofMissNinnalaJoshi,thefirstSecretaryofSangeetNatakAkaderni.Nirmaladi'shomeatthattime wasaplacevibratingwithlife,andattractedmusicians3J1ddancersfromvariouspartsofthecountry. I met Rukmini Devi then primarily as a studentofsocial sciences whoW3S interested inquestions. relatingtothechanginginterfaceoftheartsandsocietyinpost-colonialIndia.Somethirtyyearslater, I mether again in Madras. thistime as Chairmanof a WorkingGroupforSoftwarePlanningfor Doordarshan(1983--S4).ThebusinessofthisgroupofexpertswastohelptheUnionGovernment formulate a national policy for mass communication and a software (or programme) plan for Doordarshan, to pre-empt the impact oftelevisionas a forceof culturaldisorientation.(Thiswas beforetelevisionhadinvadedIndianhomesinabigwayandmuchbeforenationalboundarieswere renderedirrelevantbyglobalizationandthecommunicationsrevolution.)Ourgroup-whichincluded SaiParanjpye, Alyque Padamsee, G.N.S. Raghavan,Bhupen Hazarika,MohanUpreu. andsome others-baddecided10havewide-rangingconsultationswithspecialistsinvariousfieldsbeforemaking anyrecommendations;it wasthusthatJfoundmyselfinKalaksbetra fora meetingwithRukmini Devi. Thismeeting,however,hadnotbee-neasytosetup.UponarrivalinMadra..,wewereinformedby theDirectorof the DoordarshanKendrathere thai RukminiDevihadrejectedthe veryideaofa meeting withour group;shedoubtedtheusefulnessofanydiscussionwithgovernmenl-appoiorcd committees,whichshethoughtweresetuptoformalize decisionsalreadytakenby politiciansand bureaucrats. Wetoo,shebelieved.wouldbeactingascarriersofthegovernment'spointofviewto anistsand notvice versa.Thispriorrejectionhadusall worried.becauseifRukminiDeviturned downOUTrequestforameeting,itwouldalsodiscourageotherdancersandmusiciansinMadrasfrom meetingus.Ourdifficultieswerefurthercompoundedbythef.:K1thatRukminiDeviwasthenJargdy confinedtoherhome:afractureinherrighlann wascausinghermuchpainanddiscomfort,anda reconsiderationofherdecisionthereforeseemedunlikely. InthecircumstanceaIdecidedtomakeanappealtoRukminiDevibywriting10herpersonally.In my letter I tried to explainthai we were notrepresentatives ofthe government,butindependent peopleworkingin thearts,education,scienceand mass communication.andthatwehadagreed to serve00thiscommitteeonlyinthehopeofharnessingthepotentialoftelevision10 createahealthier social environment. Our basic position wasthat theelectronicmedia.especiallytelevision. were muchtooimportanttobeleftonlytocommercialinterests,seekersofpoliticalpower,andvendersof entertainment, which was thecasethen(and remainsso).Iinformedherthat weasagroupwere committed to explorea new approachtomasscommunicationsuited.to.Ind~a·5 needsand.cultural genius,and thisweproposed todobyinvolvingartistsaswellasspecialistsIDotherfield'iIn;1.free exchangeofopiniononcommunicationpolicy.ImustconfessthatIalsousedrwopersonalconnections tosoftenRukminiDevi's resistancetothemeeting.Inmyletter••mentionedthatJhadbeenastudent ~fProfessorOhurjatiPrasadMukerjiofLecknowUniversity,apioneer~n.thefieldofculturals~~Jies illIndia.andthat I hadacceptedthepresentassignmentinthesamespmtasProfessorMukerjihad Stmgen Nat4J; Vol.XXXVL No.2,2001 RUKMlNIDEVI:ACO~ERSAllON 41 agreedtobethe DirectorofInformationintheGovernmentofUnitedProvincesduringtheruleofthe firstCongressministry(formedin1937)underPanditGovindBallabhPant.(ProfessorMukerjihad inthatpositiondevelopedanoriginalapproachtomasscommunicationinIndia,muchbeforeIndia's independence.) My second personal credentialwas my relationship with Miss NirmalaJoshi, for whomRukminiDevihadmuch affectionandregard. Myletter producedthe desired result andwe weresoon receivedatRukminiDevi'shomebya completelychanged RukminiDevi-fullofcourtesy forhervisitorsandcuriosityaboutourproject. Sheallowed the conversation to be taped and notesto betaken.though shewasnot willingto be photographed with her bandaged ann. We had no questionnaire, andallowed the conversation (0 follow itsowncourse. Theconversation wastape-recordedby the Member-Secretaryofthe workinggroup,Manzurul Amin,who was then AdditionalDirector-GeneralofDoordarshan.Helaterpreparedasummaryof theconversation,whichwastobepublishedinthethirdvolumeofthereportoftheworkinggroup. (lbisvolume was eventually notpublished, bUIwasmimeographedbytheMinistryofInformation andBroadcasting.)Ihadtakennotesoftheconversation,andlaterpreparedatranscriptforpublication. (Again. this was not published.)The textof theconversationthatfollowsisthus basedon(i) the summary preparedbyManzurul Amin,available inmimeographedform;(ii)thenotespreparedby meandmytranscriptfromthosenotes;and,lastly,(iii)mymemoryofthemeeting,whichhashelped meaddafewpointswhichweremissinginthesummaryandmyfirsttranscript.Unfortunately,ilhas nor: been possible to gain access 10thetapes of theconversation with Doordarshan. Despitethis limitation,thepresenttextcanclaimtobeasubstantiallyaccuraterecordofmymeetingwithRukmini Devion 14July J983.RukminiDevipassedawayinFebruary 1986. Eventhough the conversationcontains no specific suggestion fromRukmini Devi regarding programmes fortelevision in India.ithelpsoneappreciateherviewofIndianartsandcultureina changingworld.Thereisasenseoflossinherresponses,butRukminiDeviisalsoalivetopossibilities ofculturalrevivalandregeneration.ComingfromamodernizeroftheBharatanatyamdancetheatre, to whom in part we owe its thriving practice today. these responsesshould beof some value to studentsof India's evolvingculture. Afewphotographsofthe Kalaksbetracampus andstudents,oneofwhichfeaturesRukminiDevi atmorning assembly. are publishedtogether with thetranscription.These werepresentedto usby Rukmlni DeviinlieuofthepbolUgraphsofherselfshedidnotpermitustobke.-P.CJ. P.C.Joshi:Itissorefreshinghere.Theveryatmospheremakesonereflectonthecootrast betweenourtraditionalculture whichKalakshetraistryingtopreserve.andtheconsumenst approach 10culture today. How have youbeenable tomaintainthisconnectionwiththe pasttogether with creativity inresponseto newtimes? RukminiDeviArundale:Totry10recreateandsustainculturaltraditionsisinawayvery difficult,because onehas10struggleagainstcertainaspectsofmodernitywhicharenotat allIndianinthebestsenseoftheterm.Afteriodepeodence,wehavechangedfo~theworse, and, if I may say so, become more un-Indian thanwe were evenunderforeignrule. In another way, I have had no difficulty doing this becauseI have neverlost thissenseof continuity. the sense ofrootedness ina great tradition. I have never been tom from my roots. ~r In spite of India's modernization, a large number of peopleare stillattracted.10 ancient culture. Many parents are very happy that their children can grow up In this 42 P.c.iosm atmosphere[atKalakshetra],whichtries toblendtbe bestoftradition and modernityinthe realm ofarts.They want their children to imbibe the best ofour traditional culture;they cometomeandtellmeso. Ifwehavelostourrootsintraditionalculture,itisbecauseourpresentsystemofeducation iswrong.Wesayoursecularstatehasnothingtodowithreligionandreligiouseducation. Thisisasitshouldbe.fromonepointof view. Butitisanoversimplifiedapproachtoa complexreality;ourreligiousclassicsarealsoourculturalclassics,andOUf artsandculture areintimatelyinterwovenwithreligioninitswidestramifications. Religionencompasses artand artencompassesreligioninourpre-modemwayoflife. OUfculturaltraditionsare enmeshedwiththemessagesofoursaintsandsages.Once thiswas forgotten.everything wentwrong.eveninthearts. When Ifounded Kalakshetra, Ibegan with one tree. onepupil. and one teacher.IIwas verydifficult to find young students10 come and learn here. I had to find my own wayto educateyoungpeople.IhadtoprepareanewsyUabustointroduce whatIthoughtstudents should know. Languages. particularly Sanskrit. were compulsory. and language teaching wasconnectedwiththemainsubjectsofinstruction.danceandmusic...Now.ifyouarea dancer.youshouldalsoknow music.You mustalsohavesomeknowledgeofourreligious culturalbackground.bothinitsdepthandbreadth.IIismorethanthirtyyearssinceIstarted. Ihave built upthismodel ofinstructionbitby bit.Butitis onething to initiate a process. andquiteanothertoensurethattheprocessissustained.Someofmycolleaguesandstudents havecarriedon withthiswork.usingthebasicapproachIhave tried topromote.Ofcourse. someofthem have used itas akindofpassport10publicity. My attitude is. if you sowa thousandseeds.atleastoneofthem maysproutandbloom.Onegreatpersoncan givealot 10 the world. P.Ci.;You have put itverywell. Ihaveafeelingthatthosewho learn musicanddancetoday begin equating the process oflearningwith learning newtechniques.and acquiringtechnicalrefinement.Howdoyou ensure that this doesn't happen-that students also understand the values or philosopby underlying thesearts. without whichourarts wouldbe lifeless? R.DA.:Whal we try10do is to give ourpupils the spiritual background [to music and dance]; the technique is an instrument you use to express something within you. 11 is by reciting shlokas with understanding. by meditation. that they begin to get a sense of the spirirual-s-andthey like itvery much. As yousuggested. itis the spiritual meaningbehind an art fonn that is fundamental to thepedagogy ofour arts. It is this deepermeaning and significance thatwe try to convey toourstudents.Technique isnotanendinitself;itis [onlyIanecessarypartoflearninganart.Also.pedagogiccommunicationhastobesustained by a whole atmosphere and nOI just by words. Many people wbo come bere notice the atmosphere first. P.Ci.: There is also another major problem to reckon with-the debasing power of money. and the craze for glamour and tbe limelight. Today everytbing is gelling commercialized. including thearts andartists. The idea of svantah sukhaya is today underminedbytheideaofartforself-enrichrnentandself-exhibition.Inthenewmetropolitan 44 P.c.105m milieu. artists have prospered butnot art! Whatdo you thinkcould protect us againstthis onslaught? Would artinterpreted as public service bea guarantee against debasing commercialization? R.D.A.:Itisamatterofsloweducation.Iknowtoowellthatacommercial mentality has nowcomeintothepicture.Butifyoureallyunderstandthemeaningofanart,youbecome dedicatedtoit;andifyouarereallydedicatedtosomething,youdon'twantanythinginlieu ofit.Thereforetherightspirithastobeinstilledinstudentsbytherightkindofteacher,and sustainedbytherightkindofatmosphere... There arecertainthingsforwhichinthepast weneverchargedafee.Onewashealingthesick,anotherwasastrology,andanotherwas leaching and performance ofdanceand music . . _Some rich man in the village would arrangeadance,andeverybodywouldcomeandenjoytheperformance.Butnoweverybody hasto payattheboxoffice. Myfatherusedtoarrangemanymusic performances,butheneverusedto talk ofterms. Ifhehadaskedanartist'howmuchmoneydoyouwant',theartistwouldhavebeenshocked. Theseattitudestowardsthe artshave vanished,and Iam sorry to say so. Noweverything has to be sponsored. In earlier times. the livelihood of artists was assured; today. unfortunately, artists have to fend for themselves, and this has commercialized the arts. Valueshavechanged.Thatisthereal problem, andthesolutiontoitliesinthe rightkind of education...Formaleducation andtheartsmustgotogether. Culture hasbeenthoroughly neglectedinoureducationalsystem.Nowmemorizing.passingexaminationsandacquiring degrees are moreimportant than thequalityof an individual. p.eJ.:Whatyou say, alas,is true. We now find talented artists going away from their villages.Thishappensbecause they no longerenjoyeconomic security within the village, andvillagelifethussuffersaqualitativeimpoverishment.Anart canbe sustainedonlyifits organic linkwiththecommunityremainsintact.Today,with the passing offeudalpatrons, thegovernmenthasto stepin,but thegovernment's interventionhasitsownunfortunate consequences.Thefactis,thegovernmenthasnoideawhatitsroleaspromoterandprotector ofartsandartists oughttobe. R.D.A.:Ithinkwe should simply give achanceto our artiststoexpress themselves,and notletallthese modem,educatedpeople,who have no background in any art.controland guide artists,Letusconsidersuchathing as handicrafts.Remember,our handicrafts have allcome fromthevillages;they havenotcomefrom cities.Buttoday whatishappening is thatwe form acommittee,and tellthevillagecraftsman whathe shouldbedoing.We start teachingvillagerswhat theyshoulddo!This isan assertionofsuperiority.Suchpatroniziog has noplace in thesphereofcreative arts.Take yourhands off and let the villagers create somethingforthosewhohaveeyestoseeandearstohear.Itisthecraftsmanwhoshouldbe theultimatedecision-makerandjudge.Rutwe havenotgivenachanceat alltoourvillage craftsmen. Many village craftsmenare dead and gonebecause the demand for theiran is gone.Imyselfhave seen great artistsstarving and living inmiserywith nobodytocare for them. It is in such circumstances that they grow dependent on the state- for their very survival-s-and thatgives great power toofficials and administratorsand politicians. With thedeclineofvillageinstitutionsand feudalpatrons,thestatecarneintothepicture 46 P.C.JOSHI inabigway.Thishasgivenrisetoaculturalbureaucracy.Bureaucratshavestarteddeciding who is agreatartistandwhois not, eveninthe fieldof musicordance. Inthe changed circumstances. someartiststooarewillingto sacrificetheirart forthesakeof praiseand awards from the powers that be,orfor the sakeofcheap popularity.Take forinstance the culturalmissionsanddelegationsthataresenttoforeigncountries,overwhichbureaucrats andpoliticiansexercisegreatinfluence.Iknowverywellthatartistsonthesemissionsare told what and how they should perform, and the performances are supervised by people whoknow nothingaboutdanceormusic.Artistsare toldhow they should try to pleasethe public!WhileIam notopposedtostatesupportofarts,theformithastaken makesmevery unhappy. P.CJ.:Weshouldtakeourartsbacktoourpeople,andwinbackrespectforourartsand culture.Artistslikeyou.beforeyouwererecognizedbytheoutsideworld,wererecognized byyourown people,and that wasperhapsa more genuine rewardthan the highest awards youlater won.Ifyourownpeoplehadn't acknowledgedyou as anartist,youwouldn'thave asenseofself-realizationorinnerfulfilment. R.D.A.:That isabsolutelycorrect.You have said something very important ...Ithink afterwebecameindependent.there wasadesiretoshowoffourculturetotherestofthe world. Theresultisthatourcultureishardlyknowninourowncountry. p.eJ.:Comingnowtothefolkarts,Ithinkthereshouldbe someinteraction betweenthe folk and classical arts, between folk artists and classical artists. Folk arts give a certain strengthtotheclassicalarts,whichotherwisetendtogrowmoreandmorerefinedinform butanaemicincontent.Ontheotherhand.classicalartsimpartsomerefinementtothefolk arts, whichotherwise sufferfroma certain crudityin my view. Wouldyoulike to say somethingabout this? R.D.A.: [amabsolutelyinagreementwithyou.Oneofthe reasonsfor thiswideninggulf betweenthefolkandclassicaltraditionstoday istheincreasingconcentrationofallourarts inthecities:thisis amistake. Ithinkwe shouldgoandspread out[ouractivities] inthe villages.The trouble is,anurban artistwhogoes to avillagethinks that he is asuperior persononamission toteach the villagers.Thishappensall too often.Actually,so muchof ourarts, classicalorfolk:,havecomefrom thevillages.Mostofourgreatestmusicianstoo have come from villages.It is the atmosphere ofthe village, the proximity to nature, that hasinspiredthem,and theydon't getthatatmospherehere.Soweshouldcertainlygotothe v~lIages,butweshouldgotherewithasenseofhumility;weshouldn'tgotheretoteachthe Villagefolk.because itistheywhohavemuchtoteachus. Even today, in Madhya Pradesh,Gujarat, Orissa. we have beautiful folk arts, andthey have remained beautiful because there theurban worldhasnot invaded the rural world... Many sophisticated people try toput up progranunesoffolk music and dance in thecities. But they don'tcapture the spiritofthose arts because folk music and dance are rooted in nature;theyare natural;theyare unsophisticated.Thevillagesare really our biggest centres ofarts-c-burwehaveignoredthem. P.CJ.:Youhaveobservedinanothercontextthat politics.asitispractised today,panders 48 P.C.JOSHI to the baserinstinctsofman.andtherefore becomes adivisiveforce. Youhavealsosaid thatanunifiesus.Giventhisstandpoint,don'tyouthinkitwouldbeagoodideatopromote cultural contactandexchangesbetween North and South India,eastern and western India, betweenoneregionandanother?WesendteamsofIndianartiststoperforminothercountries. butwedon'thaveartistsfromonepart ofthis countryperforming inanother. Interaction betweenartistsandcultural workers from differentpansof the country would perhapsact asaforceofintegration. R.D.A.: Ido feelthatthere could have been greater unity through give-and-take in the fieldofarts betweendifferentregionsofIndia, and Iamreally convinced thatthe an<area genuineunifyingforcesolongastheyarenotusedasaninstrumentofpolitics.Sometime ago,aninter-Stateculturalexchangeprogramme,ofthe kind youseemtosuggest,had been proposed bythe government. Idon'tknow whathappened to the proposal finally. InIndia.longago.there wassome sortofculturalunity.Takeforinstance Jayadeva's music-whichwascreatedinOrissa; peopleinotherpartsofIndiaknewaboutit.Herein Madras,ImyselfhaveproducedtheGeeragovindam. Howdidthiscultural diffusionoccur, atatime whentherewereno modem communications. no radio, no television?Allour scriptures.ourpoetry,ourmusic...Kabir'spoetry- itwasappreciatedalloverIndia.This culturalunityhasdefinitelysufferedatthehandsofpolitics,especially intherecentperiod. Thatismyownview.Ifpost-independencepoliticianshadnot intruded intothe domainof culture,theprocesswould not havebeendisrupted. Thearts can again,gradually,be made ameans ofunitingpeople-thatis what Ithink. p.e.J.: I recall another observation of yours. You had said somewhere that we have inheritedagreatdealfromourpastwhichwedon'tseemto value.Andthatwecanmove forward withthisinheritanceifweinfuseitwithamodemconsciousness.Thusthrougha creativeblendingoftheoldandnew,anewculturecanemerge.We neednottumeither into mindless denigratorsormindless worshippers of the past, butwe can use ourpast achievements as a base for building a culture which would be rooted as well as forward looking.Youhadsaidthatifwestarredon this path,wewouldalsobeabletogiveandtake morefreelywiththeWest.Wecanenterinto acultural dialogue with theWestonourown termsonlyifwecometotermswithourselves. .R.D.A.:Thatisright. You see, the traditionalists must appreciate thatartdoesnotstand still.Lookatourtemplearchitecture;hereyouhavethePallava period,youalsohaveother periods.Everyperiodhasitsownart.Artdevelopsofitsownaccord.Itisconstantlygrowing: itdoesn'tremainfrozenintime.Theonlythingthatdoesnotchangeisthespiritofdedication, thequest for truth, goodness and beauty. As long as that spirit lives on, the forms may change,but good art will still be created in everyage. Willthenewformsbeas beautifulastheold ones?Yes,butcreativitycannotbeforced. ~thastocomefrominnerinspiration...Likethenever-ceasingflowofariver,thecreative impulseofacommunityisceaselesslyactive.Artistsgreatandsmallcreatenewfonoseven today.Wehavenewcompositionsinmusicanddance,forexample.Itisthiscreativeimpulse thatweshouldtryto buildup throughoureducation, and by ourown example.Weshould notpreachbutteach. And whileweare teaching,we shouldtell ourstudentsaboutthepast,