Center for the Evangelical United Brethren Heritage TELESCOPE - MESSENGER United Theological Seminary, Dayton, Ohio VoLJO no. I Winter 2000 OUR BICENTENNIAL Two hundred years ago, in 1800, both our traditions took steps to organize Christian movements among German-speaking people, and we are their heirs in the faith. The language of the traditions now differs, and so does their organization, worship and church life. But our Lord Jesus Christ is the same --yesterday, today and forever. So let's celebrate our longevity in His service this year with pride andj oy. To help us remember our humble but important origins, read the following selections from the combined account approved by our predecessors at the First General Conference of The Evangelical United Brethren Church in 1946. Some ways that the essence of these beginnings continues to influence us in The United Methodist Church are evident in Bishop Joseph Yeakel's article that follows. THE EVANGELICAL UNITED BRETHREN CHURCH HISTORICAL STATEMENT Sectio~.- they found it necessary to d~~~:~~::1~~)(\ly ow-laborers to toil in the .... Both harvest was great and Churches. They had their beginnJ~g§l in called others, who ~~;~~~:~s ~:~~;n~~! :~i~~ :~s~~elPr~. to His service. acc:~p:t~a by one or another of 1.':':':';1 eighteenth century. The followiqgJbrief from the Discipline of The ypurch of the m:<>:mn.~rs in the society in Brethren in Christ and frog:fthe Discipline continued to increase ........ ;.:;< Evangelical Church inq~¢:~t~~($forical the gracious work of spiritual processes whichl~llit~~~iibli through the States of these two branches of the Christian Church. Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia. Several great Section II meetings were appointed and hetd annually. On The Origin of The Church of the United such occasions Otterbein would hold particular Brethren in Christ conversations with the preachers then present, and In the eighteenth century it pleased the Lord our represent to them the importance of the ministry and God to awaken persons in different parts of the the necessity of their utmost endeavors to save world who should raise up the Christian religion souls. At one of these meetings it was resolved to from its fallen state and preach the gospel of Christ hold a conference of all the preachers, in order to crucified in its purity consider what manner they might be most useful. Among others, He raised up William Otterbein The first Conference was held in the city of and Martin Boehm, in the State ofPennsylvania, and Baltimore, Maryland, in the year of our Lord George A Guething, in the State of Maryland, 1789 .... [Otterbein, Boehm, Guething, Christian armed them with spirit, grace, and strength to labor Newcomer and three others attended.] in His neglected vineyard, and to call, among the The second Conference was held in Paradise Germans in America, sinners to repentance These Township, York County, Pennsylvania, at the house men obeyed the call of their Lord and Master. Their of Brother John Spangler, in the year of our Lord labors were blessed, and they established in many 1791 . [The same four, plus five others attended]. places excellent societies and led many precious .... The number of members continued to souls to Jesus Christ Their sphere of action spread increase, and the preachers were obliged to appoint an Annual Conference, in order to unite themselves had long been deeply felt. Partial attempts to more closely and to labor more successfully in the provide one had been made at different times. vineyard of the Lord; for some had been Hence it was resolved, at the conference held in the Presbyterians or German Reformed, some State of Ohio, that a General Conference should be Lutherans, and others Mennonites. They accord held, in order to provide the same, in a manner not ingly appointed a conference to be held on the 25th derogatory to the Word of God. The members of of September, 1800, in Frederick County, Maryland, this conference were to be elected from among the at the house of Brother Frederick Kemp .... [The preachers in the different parts of the country by a same four, plus nine others were present.] vote of the Society in general .... [Fourteen attended, ' ' 1,. \) but only Newcomer had been present at the earlier 'I i; ., _:I: :I' (,\ conferences.] / \~ The Conference convened on the 6th of June, 1815, near Mt. Pleasant, Westmoreland County, '\~ Pennsylvania. After mature deliberation, they presented to their brethren a Book of Discipline, Jl containing the doctrine and rules of the Church, desiring that these together with the Word of God, should be strictly observed .... Section III ~~.c... ... .,.:_~- .. The Origin of The Evangelical Association ~~~~ and The Evangelical Church KEMP HOUSE Upon the instruction and advice of that godly There they united themselves into a Society Minister of the Gospel, Jacob Albright, a number of which bears the name United Brethren in Christ, persons in the State of Pennsylvania, who had and elected William Otterbein and Martin Boehm as become deeply convinced of their sinful state, Superintendents, or Bishops, and agreed that each through his ministrations, and who earnestly of them should have liberty as to the mode of groaned to be delivered from sin, united A D. 1800, baptism, to administer it according to his own and agreed to pray with and for each other, that convictions. they might be saved from sin, and flee from the From this time, the Society increasing still more wrath to come. and more, preachers were appointed to travel In order to accomplish this work properly, they regularly, as the number of preaching-places could agreed mutually to spend each Sunday in prayer and not otherwise be supplied. The work soon extended in the exercise of godliness; also to meet each into the States of Ohio and Kentucky. It then Wednesday evening for prayer; diligently became necessary to appoint a Conference in the endeavoring to avoid e·.rerything evil and sinful, and State of Ohio, because it was thought too laborious to do all manner of good as God should give them for the preachers who labored in those States to strength and ability. The number of those disposed travel annually such a great distance to Conference. to attend these meetings soon increased, and grew Meantime, Martin Boehm and George A daily. Guething died, and Bishop Otterbein desired that The first steps toward organization were taken another Bishop should be elected (because infirmity by Jacob Albright in 1800 when he organized three and old age would not permit him to superintend Classes, appointing a Class Leader for each Class. any longer), who should take charge of the Society, These Classes were: Liesser's Class near and preserve discipline and order. It was resolved Colebrookdale Iron Works, in Berks County, at a former Conference that whenever one of the Pennsylvania; Walter's Class near Quakertown, Bishops died another should be elected in his place. Bucks County, Pennsylvania; and Philip's Class, Accordingly, Christian Newcomer was elected Northampton County, Pennsylvania. Bishop, to take charge of and superintend the On November 3, 1803, there was held the first concerns of the Society council ofthe denomination. [Jacob Albright, John The want of a book of discipline in the Society Walter, Abraham Liesser, Jacob Phillips, George 2 Miller and twelve others were present] ... ON SWALLOWING GNATS: BICENTENNIAL The first Conference was held, in 1807, in the RUMINATIONS home of Samuel Becker, at Muhlbach, then by Joseph H. Yeakel Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, now The General Conference meeting in Cleveland, Kleinfeltersville, Lebanon County, Pennsylvania. Ohio will be celebrating the 216th anniversary of the This Conference included all the officers of the beginnings of the church known presently as the Church, five Itinerant Ministers, three Local United Methodist Church (UMC), its founding date Preachers, twenty Class Leaders and Exhorters. being the Christmas Conference of 17 84 of The The membership ofthe Church was 220. Methodist Episcopal Church in America. Also As Jacob Albright by the grace of God was the being celebrated is the 200th anniversary of the instrument oftheir solemn union and holy zeal in the Evangelical United Brethren (EUB) Church, a union exercise of godliness, they were at first frequently of The United Brethren in Christ ( 1800) and The called "The Albrights." But in the year 1816, they Evangelical Association (1803). formally adopted the name, The Evangelical Theyear2000 ~------------------~ Association, which is, therefore, an ecclesiastical is also the 32nd union of such persons as desire to have not merely anniversary of the the form of godliness, but strive to possess the denominational substance and power thereof .. name "United The Discipline of The Evangelical United Brethren Church, Methodist" 1947 Edition, pp 3-9. ( 1968-2000), which supersedes U.M. HISTORICAL SOCIETY CELEBRATES the denominational UNITED BRETHREN BICENTENNIAL names "Methodist" September 24-26,2000 (1939-1968, 29 years) and The Historical Society Annual Meeting at "Evangelical Wesley Memorial Church, Baltimore, MD (US 40 & United Brethren" Johnnycake Rd , Catonsville, MD), with the theme (1946-1968, 22 "United Brethren 2000," includes an ali-day tour to BISHOP YEAKEL years). Kemp House, outside Frederick, MD; Long's Barn, We were painfully aware that as EUBs, we Boehm's Chapel and other historic sites in P A could never brag about being the largest of Presenters include James Stein, Steven O'Malley, anything. We could only say that we were loved, Milton Loyer, John Schildt and Edwin Schell. called and sent by God. We were conscious that Information and registration form available at : our heritage was a remarkable mixture of poverty 2200 St. Paul St., Baltimore, MD 21218; Fax 410- and wealth. We were committed to an educated 889-1501. E-mail: <[email protected]>. Or 410- m1mstry. Our theology and polity were inten 889-4458 (Mon. & Fri. only). tionally inclusive. Integration, women in ordained ministry and justice ministry flowed from a simple and profound faith in God's final victory. And Telescope-Messenger because this was true, we found ourselves free to is published twice yearly by the Center throw our resources and ourselves into every effort for the Evangelical United Brethren Heritage that appeared to advance God's reign. Our focus United Theological Seminary, 1810 Harvard Blvd. was on relationship and community. Attendance Dayton, OH 45406-4599 was more important than numbers, and community Editor: Donald K. Gorrell more important than membership We constantly Editorial Committee: searched for representative structures at every level Donald K. Gorrell & James D. Nelson ofthe denomination. The possibility ofunion with Correspondence should be sent to the editor at the Methodist Church was cause for much 1318 Daventry Ct., Centerville, OH 45459 excitement 3 Article V ofThe Constitution as adopted by the denominations, separated in their beginnings by uniting conference in 1968 remains unchanged to this language and national backgrounds, could no longer day and reads, "Ecumenical Relations-- As part of validate the need for separation. Our covenant the church universal, The United Methodist Church understandings as expressed in our Books of believes that the Lord of the church is calling Discipline presented no major insurmountable Christians everywhere to strive toward unity; and difficulties; our general agencies were parallel, therefore it will seek, and work for, unity at all except that size and financial resources limited the levels of church life .. " (The Book of Discipline, extent to which ours could be developed, and the 1996, p. 22.) primary faith statements, The Articles of Religion Such a Constitutional statement is totally for the Methodists and The Confession of Faith for missing from the last edition of The Discipline of the EUBs, were deemed compatible in spite of the the EUB Church. However, it accurately represents technicalities oftheologicallanguage. The inevitable the activities and rnindset of the EUB people as they question became, "Why not?" sought union with the Methodist people, and as Size also had much to do with the merger. portrayed in their local and regional participation in Bishop Wayne Clymer, then president of various Councils of Churches and other expressions Evangelical Theological Seminary, spoke to this of ecumenical witness and service. issue by asking the question in his poem, "What can It is important, however, for us to remember and God do with so few?" (EUBs numbered about recognize that denominational union/mergers are 750,000 at the time; Methodists 9 million.) more easily voted and legislated than they are made But size has both limitations and advantages. real and achieved in the lives of the constituents. Among our limitations were our inabilities to Actually, the union of '68 was not difficult to provide leadership in some critical areas of the achieve once the required votes had been recorded. church's mission. While we had agency structures There were many reasons that this was the case. in Missions, Education, Evangelism, the Women's Among them was the ecumenical spirit that was Division, Pensions and Publications, we assigned alive and well at the time. The words of Jesus in his many functions to individual staff in addition to their high priestly prayer, "that they may all be one ... so primary responsibility, or assigned the portfolio to that the world may believe" (John 17:21-22), were an agency with the hopes that it could find a way to to be acted upon, literally. And further, we were implement the assignment In addition to the above, partners in all the major ecumenical efforts The the Council of Administration staff handled the National Council of Churches (NCC), The World finance, administration, stewardship and social Council of Churches (WCC) and The Consultation concerns responsibilities. on Church Union (COCU) All of which placed our The Methodists were more fully staffed and had leadership in common settings that revived a complement of additional agencies. We were memories of earlier conversations of the possibility happy to join with these ongoing ministries. The of merger merging ofthe staffs of the two denominations went Looking back, a number of our people smoothly, for the most part, and proved to be a suggested that the EUBs were a denomination still helpful contribution to the new denomination. seeking a more definitive ecclesiology, which they One of the major differences and one of the claimed was late in developing. Perhaps Bishop advantages will be in evidence at the General Seybert's standard, "without a bell, a tower...and a Conference as the Connectional Process Team debt," had influence into times that no longer (CPT) report highlights the need to be sure that all understood nor supported it Identity, discipline and of the church is represented at the table where accountability were worthy goals Others would "conferencing" takes place. In the EUB church, contend that we had difficulty defining ourselves as both the General Council on Administration, which a distinct denomination. When people asked, we had limited powers to adjust the work of the tended to say that we were much like the denomination between General Conferences, and Methodists the General Program Council, which brought all of More motivating was the fact that these two the general agencies together, including the Board 4 of Bishops, provided the forum for conferencing desirable for the development of a victorious wherein the components of program, personnel and native church." This was a carte blanche for the finance met in Council to counsel together. mission board to promote and encourage united Methodism's historic separation of these three is yet effort overseas. to be satisfactorily resolved. Size was no doubt a The 1963 Discipline states the authority as contributing factor, enabling the EUBs to function follows "~1627. The board [of missions] is together. This basic commitment of the EUB empowered to take such steps toward the federation Program Council was adopted in name but not in and unification of work abroad with other missions structure in the new church. Structuring for or church bodies as may effectively promote the connection and cooperation rather than competition development of an indigenous church." This in the UMC is yet to be achieved. authority was not changed from 1925 except to Again, size affected the work and structure of make its language politically correct The point our Board ofMissions, especially as it related to our being that the Board of Missions had the power to churches outside the US Prior to the union of '68, act, while presently this power remains with the Dr. John F. Schaefer, Executive Secretary of the General Conference. Board, addressing a meeting of Commission on the The issue of what it means to be a Global Structure of Methodism Overseas, spoke of the Church is facing this session of the General EUB experience: Conference through the work of the CPT report. It One of the factors which contributed to the is suggested that the time has come to structure the [mission] policy was the size of the [former] United Methodist Church as a Global Church. denominations. Prior to the union of The Basic structures would include Central Conferences Evangelical Church and The United Brethren in in at least four major regions of the world. The Christ, the membership of these two denom annual conferences of the US are proposed to inations was approximately equal and less than become one of these regions as a Central one-half of the present membership. The size of Conference. Thus, as we enter the 21st century, the the two churches placed rigid limitations upon questions of mission and ministry are before us on a their missionary program both in personnel and global scale. Whatever the answers, the challenge financial support. The conferences organized to follow Christ into this new day is one that the overseas were small and faced a struggle to United Methodist people are prepared to embrace. survive. It became evident to the mission leaders at home and to the national Christians Cleveland and the Evangelicals and the missionaries that it would be most +The Evangelical Association/Evangelical Church was advantageous to join with other churches in a headquartered in Cleveland, OH for 90 years (1854- united Protestant effort. Both former churches 1944) found it extremely difficult to work +In 1854 the Publishing independently and sought the opportunity of House of the Evangelical cooperating with other denominational mission Association was moved boards and with other Protestant churches from New Berlin, PA to a overseas. This, however, was but one factor newly constructed three story building at Woodland and the least important. Far more important Ave. and Harmon St. in was the shift in opinion within the general Cleveland. church which had crystallized sufficiently by +In 1928 the Publishing 1925 to enable the General Conference of the House and headquarters of United Brethren in Christ to adopt the following the denomination moved to the former Wooltex Building resolution: "Upon the request of a foreign on Superior Ave, between East 19th and East 21st Streets. mission conference, the board is hereby granted +In 1944 the building was sold to Tower Publishing, with authority to take such steps in cooperation and the printing operation moved to Harrisburg, P A and the federation of work abroad with other missions denominational agencies to Dayton, OH in anticipation of after consideration as may be necessary and EUB Union. 5 EUB ORIGINS IN OHIO discovered several preachers who had served in the by Donald K Gorrell original Eastern Conference. Perceiving that the Ohio has been a central place in the United time was ripe to organize the informal efforts of Brethren and Evangelical traditions from their early isolated local preachers, Newcomer convened "a years to the present When the Evangelical United little conference with the brethren" at Michael Brethren Church was created in 1946 its national Kreider's farmhouse north of Circleville. Fifteen headquarters was located in Dayton, Ohio, but both preachers attended, and Newcomer organized them Evangelical and United Brethren headquarters had as the Miami Conference. With no authorization been in the State since the mid-nineteenth century. from anyone, he created the second annual Both had been established in close relation to their conference, but the United Brethren were still publishing houses, which were located in Cleveland evolving their organization and such pragmatic for Evangelicals and in Dayton for United Brethren. action fit the need of the time and was approved The latter also established its first college, later. Unlike Methodist itinerants, United Brethren appropriately called Otterbein, in Westerville in preachers in Ohio were primarily farmers who 1847, which still thrives. Dayton was also the place preached when chores and crops permitted. In United Brethren located their theological school, 1812, for example, the Minutes of the Miami Union Biblical Seminary, in 1871; now called United Conference recorded that only three of twelve Theological Seminary it continues as one of the preachers "gave themselves up freely to travel the thirteen United Methodist seminaries. Today the circuit"; in 1817 only five of sixteen did so. For former EUB headquarters building houses the United Brethren both local and traveling preachers United Methodist General Council on Ministries and were equally members of annual conference, a other denominational offices. Moreover, the practice that offended Francis Asbury's sense of beginnings of women's missionary societies in both discipline and was equally disliked by the Albright denominations were in Ohio, and the first woman people. ordained by the United Brethren in 1889 was reared in the State and graduated from the Dayton semmary. The ministry of both Evangelicals and United Brethren in Ohio began more humbly among German settlers who originally were followers of Philip William Otterbein, Martin Boehm and Jacob Albright in Pennsylvania and Maryland and then migrated to the new State. Differences in the ways the two German-speaking fellowships took shape reveal distinctive approaches that make clear why their similar mission made early union impossible. By 1806 identifiable members of each group had settled in Ohio. Two brothers who had joined the EUB HEADQUARTERS, DAYTON Albright movement in western Pennsylvania, Daniel and Philip Hoy, started farms northwest of Official mission work in Ohio by the Evangelical Lancaster, but no regular Evangelical ministry was Association did not begin until 1816, the year of its organized for a decade In the same vicinity George first General Conference. Adhering to strict Benedum and Abraham Hiestand, who had been discipline, Evangelicals did not move into the State United Brethren preachers in the east, continued to until they were able to send full-time itinerants. In preach informally The first United Brethren class that year Canton Mission and Scioto Mission were in Ohio was organized in 1806 by Andrew Zeller in authorized. Adam Hennig was assigned to the his house at Germantown, southwest ofDayton Canton Circuit, which covered four hundred miles When United Brethren leader Christian in ten counties, consisted of thirty to forty Newcomer first traveled to Ohio in 1810 he appointments, and took three to four weeks to 6 complete. Growth of the Evangelicals was slow, movements apart in early years. In 1834 the United with 229 members reported in 1819 and only 368 by Brethren created a publishing house at Circleville 1826. Heeding the plea of Ohioans, the Association which began to publish the denominational weekly: in the latter year created a Western Conference, but The Religious Telescope. Both the publishing house it was closely supervised by the older Eastern and paper moved to Dayton in 1853. Conference rather than being autonomous. Its By 1839 the era of beginnings for both primary value was to save itinerants a trip of denominations had ended. That year the hundreds of miles to annual conference yearly. Evangelicals elected John Seybert as their first Difficulties raising money and recruiting preachers bishop since Jacob Albright's death in 1808, and for the rugged work in Ohio led the Association to much of Seybert's work centered in Ohio, where he appoint the experienced Presiding Elder Henry lies buried in Seybert Cemetery near Bellevue (now Niebel to direct its new Western Conference. Under part of the Bishop John Seybert/Flat Rock Cluster his leadership the denomination's efforts in Ohio United Methodist Heritage Landmark). A year improved by the 1830s. earlier the Association had erected its first church Among the United Brethren the work in Ohio building in Ohio at Greensburg, near Akron, ending was more favorable. In contrast to the subservient the long-time custom of meeting in houses and status imposed on the Western Conference by the cabins. Two months after Seybert's election, the Evangelical Association, the Miami Conference United Brethren .Miami Conference met in a brick played a formative role in shaping the United church at Germantown, a mile from Andrew Zeller's Brethren in Christ. It was the Miami Conference house where the movement had first organized in that appealed in 1813 to William Otterbein "to Ohio and where the conference previously had met ordain, by the laying on of hands, one or more four times. As both denominations moved from preachers, who afterwards may perform the same homes to churches and adopted more permanent for others" so as to reduce the lack of order in forms of government, a new era began, which led to receiving and ordaining preachers in the new Ohio's central place for EUBs both historically and denomination. In response, Otterbein ordained geographically. Christian Newcomer and two others as elders just six weeks before he died in November 1813. The fact that Newcomer already had been elected bishop ABOUT THIS ISSUE: for a year by the Eastern Conference, five months This issue is being distributed not only to our prior to the ordination, evidenced the disordered usual mailing list but also to the delegates of the state of United Brethren polity at the time. Also it United Methodist General Conference at was the Miami Conference that called for the first Cleveland in May. It wiD be distributed when the representative General Conference in 1815, at which Center for the EUB Heritage presents an audio the denomination settled its polity and adopted its visual program 1·ecogmzmg the 200th first official Discipline. When a second General ·anniversary of the origins of our traditions, led Conference met in 1817 it elected Andrew Zeller by Bishop George W. Bashore (UTS '58). from the Miami Conference as a bishop to assist Joseph H. Yeakel (UTS '52) pastored several EUB Newcomer. churches, was a staff member of the Board of These creative moves, together with the decision Evangelism and became its Executive Secretary in to enlarge its English language ministry, enabled the 1965. In 1968 he was elected General Secretary of United Brethren to grow more rapidly in Ohio than the United Methodist Board of Evangelism and in the Evangelicals. By 1839 the latter reported 7,859 1972 was elected Bishop, presiding over the New total members of the Association, whereas the York and Washington-Baltimore Areas. Since United Brethren had an estimated membership of retirement he resides in Smithsburg, MD over 20,000 The fact that the latter estimated their numbers while Evangelicals and Methodists Donald K. Gorrell edits the Telescope-Messenger accurately counted theirs was another evidence of and is a retired Professor of Church History, UTS. the lack of orderly discipline that kept the 7 ANECDOTAGE Justina Lorenz Showers, born in 1885, a longtime leader in the UB Women's Missionary Association and EUB Women's Society of World Service, and widow ofB ishop J Balmer Showers, was asked by an oral history interviewer: "Would you comment on what you mean by the democracy of the church?" At age 95, she remembered the following about her United Brethren heritage: ... Our chmrch was born nul times of poverty, when people came from another nation, with almost no goods. They had to make their way; .. JiJe was very simple. And everyone was ... strnggling to make a living. So there were no classes--no caste system of any knnd ... J think that spirit in which our church was born was stnll in existence when [ lhegan to know something alhout the church. Our constitution had been built on such ideas and such thouglh.ts .... Tlh.ere was no idlea of sex at that time; the only idea of race was that we Ji.Jn't be~ieve in slavery and we ... couldln't go into the states where slavery existed. But our method of working was democratic. Our General Conference delegates were elected by ballot in the congregations; each one had! a chance to vote for someone. The time came when, for some reason or another, that privilege was taken away, and the Conference elected the delegates. But in the beginning, every member in the church had a right to vote for somehody for delegate to the General Conference. Women had an equal place. Women were delegates to the General Conference. Women were aHowed to preach--even sometimes when they were ma~r~ried and were a dete~r~rent tc their husband preacher, doing lhetter than he Ji.d; nevertheless they were allowed to preach. And when it came to the ilnpuise for women to l1e interested in missions ... the men of our church encouraged us. Dr. lFunklh.auser presided over the first group of women meeting to see whether they couRdl organize a Women's organization. And ail along the way, the men encouraged the women i.n that work. So that i.n every way, everyone was equal--it was a real democracy. [think [noticed it especially as [think in terms of the bishopric .... When [ was in coHege, K was a 'run of the mind' memlher of my dass. When, at the 50th reunion, the powers that be learned that my huslhand was a bishop, [became a somelhody! Just recently a seminary student was asked to talke a bishop to the airport, and he was reported to have sand that he was scared, and Ji.Jn't bow what he couRdl taftlk about--how should he act? That wasn't the case in the UB Church. Our bishops were just somebody among many who were needed in supervisors of the worlk. And they were very human. ... [ think we honored them, yes. But [ thinlk our attntude was expressed by my husband when he said, "[n the UB Church, we think bishops are as good as anybody if they behave themselves!" [ thinlk .['we said aU [ can on that subject. Justina Lorenz Showers, Oral [ntemew, Nov. 5, 1980, UTS Library United Theological Seminary Non-Profit Center for the Evangelical United Brethren Heritage Organization 1810 Harvard Boulevard U.S. Postage Dayton, OH 45406-4599 PAID Dayton, OH Permit No. 579 CHANGE SERVICE REQUESTED