Sara Adler and Jim Adler by Fred Horowitz

20 Pages·2017·0.06 MB·English

AdlerInterview1
December8,2016
Interviewer: FRED HOROWITZ
Interviewee: SARAADLERandJIM ADLER
FRED: Thisis Fred Horowitz. This istheinterviewof SaraandJimAdler. I’llbethe
interviewer.Thedateis November19,2016, atthelovelyAdlerresidence. Saraspecifiedthat
thisinterviewmustincludeJimbecausehe’s been apartofherlifeasanarbitratorsincethe
beginning.
Thefirstquestion IwanttoaskSaraandJimishowdid you meeteachother?
SARA: Thatoneisreallysimple. IwasalawstudentatUSC andJimwas teaching
legalwriting. Iwasassignedtohim.
Theywereusingpracticinglawyerstoteachlegalwritingatthatstage. Andfortunately,hedid
not grademe.
JIM: Veryhonorable.
FRED: Howlongdidittakebeforetherewas amutualattractiondeveloped?
SARA: Ithinkprobablyprettyquicklybutbecauseofthefactthatwewereteacherand
studentitdidn’texactlydevelopveryquickly. On theotherhand,wehadbeenworkingas
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studentandteacheroffandonformonthsbeforewefirstwentoutin March,andthenwegot
marriedthatAugust.
FRED: That’swonderful. Sohowdideachof you getinterestedinlaborlaw? Jim,did
yourinterestdevelop firstbeforeSara’s?
JIM: Well,maybe. IwasatPrincetonandtherewasacoursein LaborEconomics
taughtbyRichard Lester. Itookitandenjoyedit.When IwenttolawschoolatMichigan Ihad
qualifiedforthelawreviewand Ihadtopickaprojectformynote. TheprojectthatIpicked
wasbasedontheSteelworkers casethatwashandledbyArthurGoldbergandhis firmwhere
theywerechallengingaTaft-HartleyInjunctionsoughtbytheGovernmenttoforcethe
Steelworkersbacktowork. Sothis musthavebeeninabout’57,or’58,’59. Somethinglike
that. TheSteelworkers had goneonstrike. Thegovernmenthad gottenaTaft-HartleyInjunction
andtheSteelworkerschallengeditonthebasisthattherewas enoughsteel availabledespitethe
strike. AnditwentfromDistrictCourttotheCourtofAppealstotheSupremeCourtin
somethinglikefivedays. Iwas impressedbythelawyeringand enjoyedthesubstanceand
becameininterested LaborLawbecauseofthat.
FRED: And youweremarriedatthetime?
JIM: No. Thiswasbefore. Thiswaswaybefore.
FRED: Howabout you, Sara? Howdid yourinterestin Labor Lawstart?
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SARA: Well, Ialways knewaboutunions becausemyfatherwas apediatricianwhose
practicewasprincipallycomposedofsteelworkers.Inthosedaysthereweresteelmills inGary,
IndianaandsouthofChicagowherewelived. Whentheywould goonstrike, whichtheydid
fromtimetotime,wedidn’thavemuchincome. SoIknewaboutUnions andstrikes atavery
earlyage. Ireallygottoknow moreaboutitand getinterestedinitbecausemyparentsdidn’t
exactlybelievein allowances. When Iwas14 and 1day, Igotmyworkpermit. Iwenttowork
foracousinwho was oneoftheprominentUnion sidelawyers inChicago, Harold Katzwiththe
firmthen knownas Katz&Friedman. Iworked forthemallthroughhigh schoolandallthrough
college. Igotto knowalotaboutthelabormovement.
FRED: Sowhydon’twejustcorrelatewhereeachof you werewhen you metand got
married,justsowecansetthescene.
SARA: IwenttocollegeattheUniversityofChicago,then movedtoCaliforniawitha
formerhusband. Iworkedforafew yearsand wentbacktolawschoolaboutsix yearsoutfrom
college. That’swhereImetJim.IwenttocollegeattheUniversityofChicago,then movedto
Californiawithaformerhusband.
FRED: Whenshegraduatedwhatwere youdoing,Jim?
JIM: Iwas lawyeringat Munger,Tolles,Hills&Olson. Igraduatedfromlawschoolin
’61. IclerkedattheSupremeCourtandthen IworkedfortheDepartment ofLabor,the
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DepartmentofCommerceandthePovertyProgramin Washington. Icameouthereandstarted
workinMarchof’65for Munger,Tolles.
FRED: Doingmanagement-sideLabor Lawfromthebeginning?
JIM:Thatwasthebiggestpartofthepractice. IstartedworkingwithRodHills andthat
wasthebiggestpartofhispractice.
FRED: Thenatsomepointyouwentto Irell&Manella?
JIM: 1982.
FRED:Sara,tellusaboutyourjourneyfromlawschooltobecominganarbitrator.
SARA: Well, Ihadalot ofjobs. When IgraduatedlawschoolIworkedfortheCenter
forCriminalJusticeAdministrationatUCDavis immediatelyoutoflawschool. Then Iworked
forasolopractitioner.
FRED: Whatdidhedo orshedo?
SARA: Itwasshe. Shewentontobecomeasuperiorcourtjudge. When Iworked for
her,shehadjustaneighborhoodpractice. ThenextjobIrememberwas Iwenttoworkfora
firmthen called Wyman, Bautzer,Rothman&Kuchel,whicheventuallydisappeared. Butwhile
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Iwas thereitwas abigbusinesslitigationfirmthathadasmalllaborpractice. Ididsomeof
that. Ihatedlitigationandneededto getout. Jimand Ihavedifferent memories ofhowIcame
toknowaboutJoeGentile.but ultimately,JimconnectedJoe andmetogether. Hetookmeon
asanapprentice.
FRED: WhatwasJoe’s reactiontotaking youon? Becauseas Iunderstandityoudidn’t
havealotoflaborexperiences as apractitionerorasacardcarryingunion member.
SARA: You’dprobablyhavetoaskJoe. Buthewaswillingtotryitout. Onanumber
ofgroundshesuggestedthatIprobablywasnotgoingtobesuccessfulbuthewaswillingtolet
mehaveashotat makingit. When Istartedtodo this IwenttoBenAaron whohadbeen my
laborlawprofessoratUCLAand forwhom Ihad workedwhenhewasdevelopingtheemployee
relationsordinancefortheCountyof LosAngeles. Benthoughtitwas theworstideahehad
everheard. Iwas awomanwheretherewereno womeninthe fieldinSouthernCalifornia. I
wasmarriedto amanagementlaborlawyer. Ididn’thaveastrongbackgroundinlaborlaw.
FRED: That’sonlythreestrikes.
SARA: Hethoughttherehadtobesomeotherbetterwayfor meto getoutofpracticing
lawinacircumstancethatIwasn’thappywith. MybeliefwasthatJimwouldkeepusinfood
andshelterandtheworst thatcouldhappenis Ifellflatonmyface.
FRED: Approximatelywhat year wasthatwhen…
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SARA: 1978.
JIM: Ithink yououghtto giveanodtoanotherimportantAcademymemberinthis
story. That’sSylGarrett. When IwasattheDepartmentofLabor, Iwasassignedtobelikea
lawclerkto Syl Garrettwhohadbeenselectedto decidethelastremainingissuesintheChicago
Northwestern-Telegrapher’sDisputewhichhadbeen goingonfor years. I learned fromSyl
aboutthewayheconductedhisarbitrationpracticeandthathehadpeoplewhoworkedforhim.
Theywentoutanddidthehearings buthesignedtheDecisions. HereviewedtheDecisions. So
whenSaradecidedthatshewantedtotrylaborarbitrationIthoughtofJoeGentilebecauseJoe
hadaverybusypractice. Hehad morethanhecouldhandle. Ithoughtmaybethis methodof
proceedingwouldappeal toJoe. Well,itturnedoutthatJoewasverygraciousbuthewasnot
comfortablehavingSaradohearingsorwritehisDecisions,buthetookhertoallhishearings
andintroducedhertoallthepeoplethathedealtwith,whichwasabigpartoftheSouthern
Californiapractice. Itwasn’tquitethewaythatSam KegelbroughtJohninorthatSylGarrett
brokeinthestableof arbitratorsthathadtheiroriginswithSyl. ButSylwasreallysortofthe
fatherofallofthis inawaythathewouldn’thaveimagined.
FRED: BeforeIask you about gettingstartedand howyouwerereceived backinthose
days,in1979,therewas aLaborArbitratorDevelopmentProgramatUCLAthatRegAlleyne
proctoredtheacademicportionand FMCSandAAAandacoupleofUnionsandtheCountyBar
co-sponsored. EdnaFrancis,KenPereaand Iwere3ofthe20peopleinthatprogram.Did you
knowaboutthatprogram?
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SARA: Ididn’t knowaboutthatprogramwhenit was goingon.Atroughlythesame
timetheABAranan arbitratordevelopmentprogramthat MeiBicknerwas in.
FRED: Maybe Igot yourspotthen. Thatwasabreak. Itwasawonderful program. It
tookaboutthree years andIthinkKenandEdnaandIweretheonlyones who “madeit”. They
werearbitrators right awayand Ihadto waitafewyears forotherreasons beforeImadethe
switch.MyexperienceinterningwithTomRobertswassimilarto yours withJoeofjustmeeting
peopleuntilfinallygettingsomecases. Whatwas thebreakthat you gotandhowwere you
receivedbythoseearlyparties? Because, again, youwerethefirst,probably, woman,in
SouthernCaliforniathattheyhadtodealwith.
SARA: Well, IthinkIwas. Iwas abletomakethemovedifferentlyandin someways
moresuccessfully,becauseofJim. Joeintroduced metoalotofpeople,so Ihadsomehalo
effectfromthat. Jimwas verywellnetworkedinthelabor-managementcommunityandwas
verywellrespectedbybothsides. People, Ithink,figuredthat Iwasn’tstupidandmaybe
sensibleaboutlaborlaw. ImeanitreallywaslargelyahaloeffectfromJimthat, Ithink,started
meinadifferentwaythanmanyothers. TheveryfirstcasethatIwas everselectedforwas a
privatesectorcase. ItwaswithPaulHastingsand Iamsurethatthatcamebecausetheythought
wellofJim. Ithadnothingtodowithmeindividually. Beingthespouseofalaborlawyerisan
issueforthenowsmallnumberofuswhoaremarriedtoactivelypracticinglawyers. Someon
theunion-sideandsomeonthemanagement-side. Youcantellwhat kinds oflawyerstheyare
bywhetherornottheirspousesareabletomakeitas arbitratorsbecausethosearenotseparate
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factorsinthelabor-managementcommunity. Thereallyaggressiveordoctrinairelawyerson
eithersidehavespouses thatcan’t makeit.
FRED: Howlongdidittake youtofeel comfortablesittingupthereattheheadofthe
tableand managingthesehearings?
SARA: Likealotofpeopleinmyposition,IspentalotoftimedoingCivilService
work. Also,inthosedays theCaliforniacourtshadpaidarbitrationforsmallercases asa
litigationalternative. Ididalotofthose. Ihadan incomealmostfromtheget go. It wasnot
finalandbindingauthority. butitgave meachancetodevelopskills as aneutral. I’dbeen
trainedinalitigationfirmso Iknewalotabouthowtheprocess worked, atleastincourt. Ihad
beentrainedbysomeofthebestlitigators inCalifornia. Iwas firstadmittedtoAAA’s
Commercialpaneland fromtheveryearly80’s Iwasdoingseniorexecutivecases fromthat
panel.
FRED: And youwatchedalotofJoe’s hearings? JoeGentile’s hearings?
SARA: IwatchedalotofJoe’scases.
FRED: When Iwas a younglawyerIappearedbeforeJoe. Hehad,andprobablystill
has,averyaggressiveandbrusquestyleas aneutral. Howdid youviewthatstyleas itwould
applyto yourownstyleofrunningahearing?
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SARA: Well, Istartedoutknowingthat Icouldn’tdowhatJoedid. Imust say,overthe
years I’vegotten moreandmorelikehimandlessandless willingtoletthe parties justwander
offontheirowninpaths andbyways thatIthinkareirrelevant. ButatthebeginningIwas much
moreopentolettingthepartiesdowhattheythoughttheyneededtodo knowingthat Icouldn’t
pullofftheJoeGentilestyle. Theotherreallystronglesson IlearnedfromJoewastonever
makeabenchdecision. Iwaswithhimonedaywhenhedid. I’munder5feettallandhe’sover
6feet. Hemadeabench decisionand IwatchedtheGrievant comeafterhim. Idecidedif a
grievantwouldcomeaftersomebodywhowas over6feettallandbroad,there’s no wayIwas
goingtotakethatrisk.
FRED:Sara, among yourmanyaccomplishments in yourcareerisbeingactiveina
varietyofLaborManagementorganizationsbesidestheAcademy. Iimagineyou’reactivein
otherorganizationsaswell. Tellusabouthowthatinterestdeveloped.
SARA: Well,frommyviewpointitwassortofanobrainer. TheLabor Management
communityisarelativelysmallcommunity. Thelikelihoodofa womanbecomingacceptableor
reallyanyarbitratorbecomingacceptableis to get toknowthecommunityandallowthemto get
toknow you. Oneof myearlycaseswas outattheHarboratTodd Shipyard(thatnolonger
exists). DuringmyveryfirstcaseattheShipyard therewas aflowatthebackoftheroom. I
finallyaskedcounselwhatwas goingon. Theysaid,“everybodywantstoknowwhatawoman
arbitratorlookslike”. Iwasn’tsurewhattheythoughtthatcouldbe. Also,Jimwasinvolved
withatleastthe LACountyBar’s LaborandEmploymentLawSectionfairlyheavily. In fact, I
followedhimas PresidentoftheLACountyBar LaborEmploymentSection.Iwasalso
PresidentofwhatwasthentheLosAngeles ChapteroftheIndustrialRelationsResearch
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Association, IRRA,alsoafterJimbyafew years. HewasinvolvedwiththeABAand Icameto
thatalittlelate. ButwiththeADR Committee(onlyitwasthen Labor LawandtheLawof
CollectiveBargaining)whilehewasinvolvedwithothercommittees.IwasChairofthat
committeeandthemost usefulthingIdidwas getthecommitteetotakeoverdoingElkouri
whentheElkourisannouncedthattheywerenotdoinganyfurther workon thebook.
FRED: Ididn’t know youwereresponsibleforthat. That’samajorachievement.
SARA: It’sinthefirstvolumethatIdid. Theyacknowledgedthefactthatthiswas my
project.Itseemedtomethatitwasagoodplaceforitto go. Andagoodthingforthecommittee
tobedoing. It gaveusanadditionalfocus.
FRED: Inthecourseofthatorganizationalexperience, you areinvitedtobeaspeaker
onpanels. Isthatanactivitythat youenjoyedorjustfeltitwas anecessaryadjunctofwhatwe
doinourprofession?
SARA: Someofeach. Andagain,inbeingan earlywomanintheprofession,ithad
pluses andminuses. Oneofthepluseswasthateverybodywaslookingforawomanonthe
panel. So Igottospeakmorethanprobablymostemergingarbitrators. Theywantedtoprove
theywereinthemodern timesorsomething.
FRED: Whendidotherwomenbeginseeking youradviceonbecominganarbitrator?
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