Fighting for a Cause Aliran Monthly's Interview with Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail

40 Pages·2012·8.39 MB·English

HEART TO HEART :
"\\'hat comes from the lip' reaches the car,
what comes from the heart reaches the heart" ·Arab proverb
Fighting for a Cause
It's a struggle of the spirit, without arms
g
our members of the Aliran Monthly edi nished living room. While we waited. we \\.'On
torial board met Dr Wan Azizah Wan dered if she would be guarded in articulating
Ismail, wife of sacked deputy prime her views due to the gag order !'>lapped on her.
minister Anwar Ibrahim, at her Bukit
Damansara home in Kuala Lumpur recently. Soon, the woman ,..,·hom many in the fledgling
Reformasi movement look to for mspiration ap
The house looked almost deserted when we peared. Dressed in a simple, ::.tylish pink and
arrived at 3 pm for our appointment. We white baju kunwg A.zizah appeared supremely
walked around the house and spotted a re confident and fielded our questions deftly, "ith
placed wooden panel on the front door and a out any airs, during the -10-minute session.
missing glass pane on the window - telling
evidence of the excessive force that police used In this exclusi\·e wide-ranging internew with
when they broke into the house to arrest A/iran Monthly, one of her rare interviews with
Anwar on the night of 20 September, soon af the local media ('wh1ch she avoids because, ::.he
ter he had led massive demonstrations in the says, they distort her views), she provides an
capital. insightful glimpse into her backgnund, her
family's recent trials, the recent str~t prote,ts
Presently, a young aide opened the panelled door and the challenges facing the Reforma:-i mow
and ushered us into a spacious but modestly fur- ment, and Malays1ans generally.
Ali ron Monthly November 1998: 18( 10 ) Page 2
Mussolini And Hitler
Of Demonstrations And Democracy
Police Brutality
Shopping For Justice
Still Shopping For Justice 36
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Ali ron Monthly November 1998: 18(1 0) Page 3
Fighting for a Cause
Aliran Monthly's Interview with Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail
.
Aliran Monthly: On behalf of
Aliran, we would like to thar1k you
for granting us this interview, which
we are sure our readers will appreci
ate reading. Please convet; our COlt
cern to Datuk Seri Anwar and in
form him that we're praying for him
and hoping that he will have a fair
hearing in court.
It's been nearly two months since
Anwar was sacked as Deputy Prime
Minister and expelled from UMNO
and about one month since he was
arrested. How is your family, espe
cially the children, coping with the that they are the children of a Alor Setar, from Standard One to
situation? fighter. They have to continue Funn Five. I liked the Convent
because it is very important to school very much. The nuns
Dr. Wan Azizah Wan Ismail: The have an education, to have the taught me a lot. I can still recite
children of course miss their fa ideals and the principles. They 'Our Father who art in heaven ...
ther terribly. They have had their have to fight, but they must go all right? I went to Tengku
little episodes -one had an anxi on with their education. It is im Kurshiah College for a while and
ety attack. They had to go to portant. then I was in Dublin for six years.
school when earlier on they 1 was the top student for
didn't feel like going. And then Aliran: For many Malaysians, you Obstretics and Gynaecology for
they l1ad fever, conjunctivitis and haven't been a very public person my year and won a gold medal.
all that. So, I had to deal with all until recently. Could you tell us a My name is inscribed in the halls
that. This is quite normal in any bit about yourself and your back of the College of Surgeons, which
family - the illnesses here and ground before becoming the wife of a is very important because it is a
there. 11aHonalleader. Malaysian girl's name. Of
course, there are two other Ma
But our family is now in a tur Azizah: I grew up in Kedah, laysians, but I was the first fe
moil. Their father has been Mahathir's state. I grew up with male. But I don't ru.ually brag
treated in this way and the chil my uncle and aunt because my you know ... (smiles}
dren feel the outrage. My eldest father studied in London at that
daughter tried her level best; she time and he had to leave me be I was a houseman in the GH in
went over and tried to seek some hind. Dr Mahathir was an MP Kuala Lumpur. That's where I
political support from family when I was growing up. I re first met Am..,·ar-he was visiting
friends - not as an emissary but member Datin Sri Or. Siti Oatin Sri Dr Sati Ha.smah's sister.
just to meet President (Joseph) Hasmah (Mahathir's wife) came She had an appendicitis. I was on
Estrada and President (B.J.) to officiate at my school's fun-fair. duty and he came to see her and
Habibie. That was it. I was guard of honour - many that's how we met.
years ago. And Marina Mahathir
And the other children, they con- was also my junjor in school. I was in GH all the time. I was
tinue. Life has to go on-because on scholarship so I had to do 10
their father left them the message I studied in St. Nicholas Convent, years of seni ce. I did 14 years -
Ali ron Monthly November 1998: 18( 10 ) Page 4
until Anwar was DPM. Then I Actually, we stopped them. There Kampung Baru. What are your
stopped and thenl went back for were so many, so we said, "Eh views on the actions of the police and
volunteer service. cukuplah, janganlah banyak the protesters?
banyak." (That's enough, please,
Aliran: Has Anwar been given ad not too many.) They went up Azizah: The protesters came and
equate access to his lawyers. Are stairs, downstairs, geledah sana, showed me the scars and the
there complaints about this? geledah sini (rummaging here and wounds and the bruises. Yes, they
there). And then one group went; came and showed me because
Azizah: Initially, he did not have a second group came. So tiring. I I'm not directly involved, but I'm
any access but (for the) hearing, don't know what they were look so sympathetic because they are
he could see his lawyers - three ing for. doing this on my behalf. The bru
lawyers at a time, office hours. tality is actually on the part of the
Not on Tuesdays and Public Holi Aliran: Did they give you an inven police.
days. On Tuesdays, the Magis tory?
trate comes to the prison, so no They (the authorities) have to
body is allowed to go. Other Azizah: Yes, they had a search list prove thatthe protesters were the
days, yes. after that. They took some tapes. ones (who were violent). If you
All the tapes that were for the go to those who have been ar
Aliran: Does he find it difficult to Gerak Reformasi-not the Gerak rested, who are in hospital. .. who
prepare for his case because he is de (Malaysian People's Justice are the ones who got beaten up,
tained? Movement) - whatever Anwar you tell me? And two policemen
had been doing. came out, ini scratch sana, ini
Azizah: Yes, in a way- because scratch sini (with just a couple of
when he was arrested, they came Aliran: Regular protest marches and scratches here and there), two
to ransack the house. From 12 demonstrations have taken place in policemen -then what is your
midnight to 6 in the morning - Kuala Lumpur recently. Do you re evidence? And then you have
three groups coming and going, gard this as a hopeful sign for the these protesters sudah four
ransacked everything. Some future of Malaysian democracy? stitches sana, patah sana, patah sini
times you need files and letters, (with severe injuries),so who's
which helps in the defence; so we A.zizah: Any protest is a hopeful resorting to violence?
have a bit of a difficulty in that sign for me because if it dies
sense. down, then everything is .forgot Aliran: How should the demonstra
ten - people get on with their tors react when confronted with ag
Aliran: When you request the ma lives. Ideals tend to die once you gressive police personnel?
terial, is it made available? have a full stomach: "So Anwar
is in jail; so what? I can still get Azizah: How can you react? It's
Azizah: TI1e office is sealed. The up and go to work and get on only natural. You give, okay, tiga
moment Anwar came out of of with life." minit bersurai (three minutes to
fice, his two offices were sealed. disperse). And then after 30 sec
It is difficult to go in and access. But when people feel strong onds, you blast them with the
And his dairies also .. .l don't enough to think that this cause is water cannon. Of course
know where they are. So, it is up for them also to fight, that is im lah ... then you see your wife or
to the lawyers;J cannot comment portant. These street protests are your daughter or your sister be
further on these legal matters. important, and it is an eye ing blasted on the face-ke, tarik
opener. Suddenly, people open rambut-ke (being dragged by the
A1iran: When they came, did they their eyes. Suddenly, they feel it hair), it's natural, you rasa (feel),
have a Search Warrant? is up to them as well to do some how can (they do this)?
thing for their country. That is
Azizah: No, no Search Warrant. important. And what did the ladies do? The
We asked for the Search Warrant. ladies protest as well and you call
Dia kata (they said), "Move aside, Aliran: Reports of violence have them pelacur (prostitutes). How
masuk (enter). 30 orang (people)." emerged in the last demonstration at can?!
Ali roo Monthly November 1998: 18(1 0) Poge 5
Of course, it is very Christian to apa (where do we have the weap that the Refommsi movement may
turn the other cheek, but it's not ons). Siapa yang buang molotov U1tleash extremi.st Islamic forces tlmt
very right at the moment. You are cocktail tu, siapa? (Who threw the might alienate the non-Muslims.
not doing anything wrong and molotov cocktails, who?) Prove it
they put all the blame on you. -siapa (who)? Azizah: I know that. The Chinese
mainly -if they can do business,
This is self-defence. It's not fair. they are all right. That is a Chi
All I'm saying is -I'm appealing nese trait. But their spirit is with
to the police - please, these are us. A lot of Chinese feel it in them
your people.Jni orang-orang kita selves that they want change as
(These are our people). Adakah welL
ki.ta sanggup melihat (Can we bear
to see) you brutalising your own They talk about extremist views,
people? but who is being extreme in this
case? isn't it the government? Of
Aliran: People have been expecting course, in anything you have the
People feel it is up /() them as well to do
you to carry the torch since Anwar's something for their country moderates (and) the extremists -
arrest. In what way do you see your but the bulk of the people are so
self playing a leading role in the moderate in this case. It is the
Reformasi nwvement? And then they bring in these FRU police who are taking extreme
(Federal Reserve Unit personnel). measures.
Azizah: I have to carry on - be (The) FRU memang (were cer
cause we are not talking about just tainly) very, very rough and at Aliran: Still others think the
Anwar the man. We're talking one time, cruel juga (too). Reformasi movement is creating in
about a cause that we have for the stability ...
country as a whole. But they have Aliran: What do you think of the
clipped me - my hands, my feet, involvement of Gerak (the Malaysian Azizah: Instability in what •..vay?
everyt:J:Ung. Everyt:hlng I do is mis People's Justice Movement) and It's only on most weekends, you
construed. I wave like Queen Gagasan (the Coalition for People's see a bit of excitement, isn't it?
Victoria, they callit 'incitement'; I Democracy) in all this? Life goes on. What instability are
say saya takutmy husband kena any you're talking about? You have
a
thing injection-Tee atau apa ke fear Azizah: It is very good -because APEC, you have Sukom, you
that my husband will be injected they are also the voices of the have this, you have that Of
or something), they say it's 'sedi people. But what Anwar has course, people are angry, but life
tion'. And then they show my hus fought for is not (for any) politi goes on.
band with a black eye. My fears cal (party), not (for) PAS, not (for)
are not unfounded, right? UMNO, not (for the) DAP. It cuts Our country is still stable, in a
across all (partisan) borders, cuts sense. We can have a little bit of
So, as leader of the movement, I across everybody, the (various) protesting - why not? Because
represent the goodness of the races as well. You see the Indians, this is what the people want to
people of Malaysia and I want to the Malays, the Chinese - of express, isn't it? What instabil
call upon that, to bring that out. I course, the Malays mostly got ity? You want to go an}'1vhere (in
think there are a lot of Malaysians belasah (whacked); the Indians are the country), you still feel safe
who are kind-hearted, good, you mostly the lawyers; and the Chi nowadays, don't you think so?
know, wanting the best for our nese are the co-ordinators. So I
country, patriotic. That's whywe think it has brought them to Of course, now if you feel unsafe,
are seeing all this coming for gether. it is the police ...m ah, you cakap
ward: fighting for a cause -with sikit reformasi (if you just mention
out arms or anything. Just the Aliran: Some people feel that the reforms), wah, are you going to
spirit, semangat. Anwar controversy is really a Malay get caught? That is the instabil
issue and therefore it i.s best left to ity, I feel, that people are feeling
Mana kita ada weapons atau apa- the Malays to resolve. Others worry now. That is not political instabil-
Ali ran Monthly November 1998: 18( 10 ) Page 6
ity, that is police instability, isn't down. But the thing is the bulk post -that should not be because
it? Reformasi! of these people are the middle it is the ordinary members who
class and the lower-middle class, should decide that.
Aliran: Do you think there is a yang really feel it (who are really
grou11d-swell of support for Anwar feeling it), because when Anwar Ali.ran: Is there a need for UMNO
and the Refomrasi move1111ellf around was DPM, he tried to help th~:,e itself to refonn then for it to survive?
the country. Or is this sentiment people.
only confined to urban areas espe Azizah: I don't think it needs that
cially in the Klang Valley? That is what I told the PM's wife much reform. I think the work
when I went to see her: ''We had ings (of the party) are all right. It's
Azizah: No, you go to Kelantan, such a good thing (going) for our just the application -like now the
you go to Trengganu, you go to country. Okay (the) PM -tallest President has so much power
Kedah .... bccause when Anwar building, tallest this, tallest that. that nobody dares to say any
went there to Kedah, 100,000 Okay, he has the vision-great for thing. So where is the democracy
(turned up)- and this is next to our country, why not? And then within it(?) -even though the pro
(the) PM's Kubang Pasu (con you have Anwar talking about cess may be supposedly demo
stituency). the masses, low-cost housing, cratic. Like my husband always
taking care of your workers, this said, just administration ofunjust
About three or four days ago, this and that. Why not? This is a laws or unjust administration of
lady came back from Kedah. Dia good combination. That's how just laws, it's the same thing. In a
kata (she said), "Saya balik our country should work. Why way, the results will be the same.
kampung, mak saya yang veteran must we upset all these things?"
UMNO (I went back to the UMNO, I think, can work.
kampong and my mother, an Anyway, when the currency fell, UMNO has worked so far. Now,
UMNO veteran) cannot (stand) the cake wasn't big enough to go because of the protest, somehow
the TV. Dia kata, 'Kenapa cakap around. Then the trouble started. you adulterated all the principles
belit-belit?' (Why are they twist that Anwar has stood for. A lot of
ing their words, she asked)" Aliran; What was the PM's wife's the party members want to just
response to tltat? show a protest. As a party,
I mean, they are seeing through though, it is still viable.
that. Satu lmri cakap ini, satu hari Azizah: Oh, she is very nice, she
cakap lain (One day you say some is very motherly. "I'm sorry It's strange; l have this feeling
thing; another day you contradict Azizah, you have to accept that. that that post is still vacant for
yourself). So, this is a very impor This is like fate." Thank you. Anwar to come out (and fill). To
tant turning point. The people in me, 1 think that if he comes out,
the villages -they are also impor Aliran: What seems to be happen he will be able to fill it again.
tant, because they are the bulk of ing in UMNO now? Some people Wishful thinking? I don't know.
the country and the voters and say infighting to fill Anwar's posi
UMNO on the ground. Whatever tion is occurring. Aliran: If Anwar is not prohibited
the propaganda that has been go from participating in politics, will he
ing on, it is not working. There Azizah: UMNO has always been form a new party?
is hope for our country. Jtu yang like that, (in) any election. Party
saya rasa sangat tu (I'm really elections - there's scrambling, Azizah: No .. .for one thing, be
touched). right? In 1987, (there was also) fore you can form a new party,
scrambling all round. It is kind of they won't register-to.
Aliran: If Anwar is unable over the a tradition that posts will be there
long tenn to lead any reform move and people will vie for the post. Aliran: Have you given interviews
ment, do you think Reformasi will Fair enough. Anwar has filled a with any of the other local media?
just fade away? post at a certain level. That is what
it should be in a political party's Azizah: Local -tak perlu; tak guna
Azizah: That's what the govern normal democratic process. But (pointless; no use). They are in
ment is hoping- (that) it will die Anwar was sacked from his party terested -but then they twist my
Ali ron Monthly November 1998: 18( 10 ) Page 7
words. Sakit hati (it hurts).
Aliran: What's your vision of a bet
ter Malaysia? Specifically, is there
aniSA in your vision?
Azizah: No.
Aliran: People would have the right
to protest peacefully?
Azizah: Yes, of course-freedom
of speech, of course. But you
don't have to protest if you have
avenues to say your stuff; you
don't have to take to the streets.
If Aliran can come out to voice
(alternative opinions) and you
feel that you have been heard and
have been given due process and
due recognition, fine. You don't
have to go and shout things like
that on the street. There is an al
ternative.
Aliran: What do you say to Malay
sians who have not awakened to tire
need for reforms?
Azizah: In life, you may try to
win over (people). You may have
a majority, but you can't (win)
everybody (over) to your point of
view. That is natural Those who
haven't awakened? Well, they
may think they are sitting on the
fence or they (may) say they are
not strong enough to come for
ward to put their views across; I GOVERNMENT AND THE PEOPLE
accept that-because that is their
opinion, their right to exercise. Tzu-kung asked about government. Confucius said, "'Suffi
But the majority, the bulk of us, cient food, sufficient armament and sufficient confidentoe of
really feel that something unjust the people.n Tzu-kung said, "Forced to give up oae of these.
has been done -and that is what which would you abandon first?" Confucius said, '1 would
we're trying to make right. abandon the armament." Tzu-kung said, "Forced to give up
one of the remaining two, which would you abandon fint?"'
Aliran: Some people think tlzat Dr. Confudus said, ''I would abandon food. There haft been
Mahathir is indispensable. deaths from time immemorial, but no state can exist wilhoal
the confidence of the people."
Azizah: Nobody is indispensable
in this life, that's for sure. Not me,
not anybody. 0
Ali ran Monthly November 1998: 18( 10 ) Page 8
Mussolini ancl Hitler
Strong leaders who put their nations on the map.
&y Dr Maznah Mohamad
lt was Mussolini who
popularised fascism as a move
Mussolini once proclaimed, "The 20th century belongs ment for national upliftment.
to Italian fascism. ." I think we are more familiar with Fascism, as a movement of the
the ring, -rhe 21st century belongs to the Asia-Pacific. ." early twentieth century laid
The first claim was thwarted. Is the latter claim doomed
strong emphasis on the su
to suffer the same fate? History has a way of repeating
premacy of nation (race or state)
itself. Even more uncanny, historical leaders may have
as the centre and regulator of all
a way of replicating themselves. I wonder if a history
history and life. When Mussolini
lesson on Mussolini and Hitler can help us see some
was in power, an unbreakable
resemblances. ......
form of unity, including blind
loyalty behind the leader was
m always expected.
itler and Mussolini are and Hitler ruled the Third Reich What of the social and political
historical pariahs, but for 12 years. Even though there conditions which spawned the
let us not forget that the were civil movements within emergence of fascism in Italy? In
rise to power of these two men both countries which sought to early 20th century Italy, there
was propped up by the enor challenge their rule, these was a discrepancy between the
mous adulation by their own groups were marginalized be advancement of industry and
people. Both were popular lead cause society was mesmerised the persistence of a semi-feudal
ers during their heyday. Even in by the power of the Duce state structure and traditional
tellectuals were enthralled by (Mussolini) and the Fuhrer authority. Italy was a late
them and no matter how brutal (Hitler). Besides, the battery of industrializer as compared to
their political tactics were, the repressive instruments of the Britain and France. It was anx
people had a way of justifying state was easily deployed to cas ious to play catch-up. The prop
the usefulness of these authori tigate all manner of dissidence. ertied classes and the new
tarian figures for their society. middle-class always feared so
Fascism thrived on cial unrest and sought the sup
The Germans and Italians before Nationalism port of a strong man to ensure
the Second World War wanted a order, rather than fight for long
leader of astounding stature to Fascism as an ideology rejected overdue reforms.
instil national pride.They des the spirit of individual liberty
perately wanted to swagger in and equality of men and races. Both Mussolini and Hitler in
front of all the other European The leader in control wielded stilled strong nationalistic feel
races to make up for their status power in Machiavellian fashion, ings among their people to
as late industrializers. and under Mussolini, the Italian achieve fantastic goals. The Ital
slogan for fascism was, "to be ians, just like the Germans, un
Mussoliniruled Italy for20 years lieve, to obey, to combat". der Hitler, wanted to boast to the
Aliron Monthly November 1998: 18(10) Poge 9
world that as a race they were Mussolini's authority to an even Guiseppe Volpi. Volpi adopted
superior and that they too could higher plane. He vowed to de deflationary and protectionist
aspire to the status of the older fend the lira and the Italian policies, among which was to fix
capitalist nations. This feeling of economy, "to his last sigh!". Ex the lira at an artificially high rate
"possibility for greatness" was cerpts from his writings, pro of 90 to the pound sterling.
extended into all areas, includ claiming measures to solve the
ing sports. The Italian football crisis have an uncanny familiar Mussolini's fascist economic
team won the World Cup twice ity: policies favoured stability over
under fascism, in 1934 and 1938. mobility. Wage levels were de
"Our private economic life was pressed and trade unions were
Economic Crisis, Firing getting thinner and lighter; ... It banned. The government inter
of Finance Minister, was inconceivable that an or vened in the banking sector
Autarky and War derly, quiet, disciplined State,. .... and took over the task of in
should abandon these whole dustrial development. Italy
The economic condition which some forces ..... to the mercy of eventually conquered Ethiopia
heightened the use of fascistic shark speculators and parasites, to resolve its economic prob
control during Mussolini's eager to enrich themselves on lems as well as rejuvenate its
reign was the economic crisis the depreciation of the lira .... A nationalist pride.
of the Ia te 1920s. Before this, betrayal of the Italian people was
Italy was experiencing a boom being plotted by a class of un Mussollnl had No
as a result of the reconstruction worthy citizens." Mercy For His Rivals
of Europe after the end of the
First World War. Much like the "I had to put speculation with its Throughout Mussolini's
phenomenon of Asian back to the wall with a sham. I manoeuvrings, a majority of the
NlCdom of the late twentieth had to face and defeat that part Italian people welcomed his au
century, the country quickly of a certain class who would thority. The emerging middle
adopted laissez-faire economic have pushed the nation toward classes were tired of strikes and
policies and financial deregu bankruptcy." general disorder in society. They
lation so as to tap benefits from wanted the economy to be re
the post-war boom. Italy's "The Fascist regime will resist stored and they wanted their
stock-market was deluged by with all its strength the attempts dignity as a nation to be lifted.
hot money from outside. to suffocate Italy made by The whole nation fell under the
adversarial financial forces. We sway of this man, especially
Just like what happened in Asia will squash them as soon as they since he had succeeded in out
recently, a financial crisis even are identified at home. The lira, flanking his enemies within and
tually set in. The Italian currency, which is the s1gn of our eco outside the party through bril
the lira's rate of exchange depre nomic life, the symbol of our liant political generalship.
ciated rapidly, as the stock mar long sacrifices and of our tena Mussolini was al\vays very sure
ket became subjected to exces cious work, will be defended of himself and had no mercy for
sive speculation and financial and it will be firmly defended- his enemies.
capitalists reaped the benefits of -and at any cost!"
this volatility at the expense of "1 am sure of my strength and my
the domestic economy. The policy that he implemented faith; for that reason, I do not in
was to fix the lira using a gold dulge in any concession or arry com
Mussolini was livid at seeing all standard, or to peg the currency promise.lleaveu>ithouta look over
of his economic ambitions crum at a fixed exchange rate. In or my shoulder or at my foes atrd those
bling before his eyes and re der to implement the new eco who cannot overtake me."
solved to reverse the trend. This nomic regulations, De Stefani,
economic crisis combined with Mussolini's finance minister was One of Mussolini's tactics to sup
a weak civil society and frail lib forcibly removed and replaced press his rivals \,;thin the party
eral foundations propelled by an industrialist and banker, was by engineering the policy of
Ali ran Monthly November 1998: 18(1 0) Poge 10