Current issues facing the PSNI

28 Pages·2013·0.41 MB·English

House of Commons
Northern Ireland Affairs
Committee
Current issues facing
the PSNI
Oral evidence
24 January 2013
Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM,
Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE,
and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE,
Police Service of Northern Ireland
Ordered by The House of Commons
to be printed 24 January 2013

HC 877-i
Published on 4 April 2013
by authority of the House of Commons
London: The Stationery Office Limited
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Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
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Mr Laurence Robertson MP (Conservative, Tewkesbury) (Chair)
Mr David Anderson MP (Labour, Blaydon)
Mr Joe Benton MP (Labour, Bootle)
Oliver Colvile MP (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Mr Stephen Hepburn MP (Labour, Jarrow)
Lady Hermon MP (Independent, North Down)
Kate Hoey MP (Labour, Vauxhall)
Naomi Long MP (Alliance, Belfast East)
Jack Lopresti MP (Conservative, Filton and Bradley Stoke)
Dr Alasdair McDonnell MP (SDLP, Belfast South)
Nigel Mills MP (Conservative, Amber Valley)
Ian Paisley MP (DUP, North Antrim)
Andrew Percy MP (Conservative, Brigg and Goole)
David Simpson MP (DUP, Upper Bann)
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List of witnesses
Wednesday 24 January 2013 Page
Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith
Gillespie OBE, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police
Service of Northern Ireland Ev 1

NorthernIrelandAffairsCommittee:Evidence Ev1
Oral evidence
Taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
on Thursday 24 January 2013
Memberspresent:
MrLaurenceRobertson(Chair)
MrDavidAnderson DrAlasdairMcDonnell
MrOliverColvile NigelMills
LadyHermon IanPaisley
KateHoey DavidSimpson
NaomiLong
________________
ExaminationofWitnesses
Witnesses: Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, Deputy Chief Constable Judith Gillespie OBE, and
AssistantChiefConstableDrewHarrisOBE,PoliceServiceofNorthernIreland,gaveevidence.
Q1 Chair: Can I begin the public session? Just sought to introduce, has been at its highest level for
before I get to our guests, on 18 January it was many,manyyears.
announcedthattheChairmanofthePoliceFederation Sothatisencouragement,butclearlytherearecurrent
of England and Wales, Mr Paul McKeever, had died, difficulties with regards to the flag protests. I am
and I think we ought to record the Committee’s relentlessly optimistic that we will see through these
condolences to Mr McKeever’s family, friends and problems, and it is an opportunity for some of the
colleagues. perhaps underlying issues of deprivation,
Chief Constable, you are very welcome. Thank you disadvantages and grievances to be aired. Obviously
very much for joining us. We have quite a few areas we would always rather that was done without the
we would like to cover with you, if that is okay, but violence, but there is an opportunity now to listen,
can I first of all ask you if you would like to briefly take a step back and move two steps forward again,
introduce your colleagues and perhaps make an whichweareworkingveryhardtoachieve.Soatthat
openingstatement? point Chair, I will hand over to you and the
Matt Baggott: We have Deputy Chief Constable Committeetoaskanyquestionsthatyoumaywishto.
Judith Gillespie and Assistant Chief Constable, Chair: Thank you very much. I think we will start
responsible for all crime matters, Drew Harris; and I withtheflagprotests,astheyhavebecomeknown.
am Matt Baggott, the Chief Constable. I think I will
probably keep my opening statement fairly short Q2 Naomi Long: Thank you for the opening
because I imagine Members have got a lot of remarks, which cover, I think, some of the questions
questions that they want to ask. I have two things to that I have, but there are other elements I want to
say: first, how immensely proud I am of the PSNI at raise.Couldyoujustclarifyforushowmanyofyour
this time. I know Members will be aware of the last officers have been injured during the protests and the
eight weeks of disorder and multiple protests, and it trouble? You have said that your organisation is
hasbeenaverytestingtimefortheorganisation. resilient, but how is morale within the force at the
Some evenings we have had up to 80 protests moment?
involving thousands of people—localised but very Matt Baggott: We have had 129 officers injured over
intenseseatsofdisorder—whichhave hadtobedealt the course of the last eight weeks, and every one of
with alongside the continuing threat from dissident thoseisaseriousmatter.Wehavebeenveryfortunate
republicans and organised crime. Even in the last that we have not had officers very seriously injured.
week we have seized £200,000 worth of cocaine. So We have currently, I think, 13 officers who are still
business as usual carries on in spite of disturbances. reportedsick,andthatisalarge-scalereflectionofthe
But it has been a testing time. We will get through difficulty and the intensity of some of the violence
this;theorganisationisimmenselyresilient.Iamvery towardsthem.
proudofcolleaguesandtheircommitmenttothis. NaomiLong:Andmorale?
Sufficeittosay,atthebeginningoftheyearwewere Matt Baggott: I always make a decision not to talk
hoping to be celebrating—I say celebrating, but all about morale as such because, having been in this
crimeissomethingthathasvictimssoitisdifficultto service nowfor nearly 35 years,every year Iam told
celebratecrime—someofthelowestcrimefiguresfor that morale is getting lower. So I do not talk about
many years. Our overall crime has fallen across all that. I talk about commitment, actually, and
categories. Serious violence and murders have not motivation,andIhavetosaythecommitmentandthe
been lower since 1968 and road deaths in Northern motivation of colleagues in the PSNI, even when I
Ireland have not been lower since the 1920s. have been to visit them in hospital, has been
ConfidenceinthePSNI,Ithinkbecauseoftheefforts exemplary.Theyhavestoodinthefrontlineinthelast
particularly around the personal policing we have eight weeks in a way that is beyond all expectation.
Ev2 NorthernIrelandAffairsCommittee:Evidence
24January2013 ChiefConstableMattBaggottCBEQPM,DeputyChiefConstableJudithGillespieOBE,
andAssistantChiefConstableDrewHarrisOBE
They have concerns about the long-term resilience of Matt Baggott: I might let Mr Harris deal with the
the organisation, which we may talk about later and specificswithregardtosocialmedia.Sufficeittosay
whichareconcernsthatIhave,particularlyinlightof that we have not just sought our own legal advice on
theeventsof thelastsixmonths andlookingforward this but also gone outside of the PSNI. We currently
over the next couple of years. So there are issues haveseniorMetropolitanPoliceofficersworkingwith
about resilience; there are issues for them about us and sharing with us their own experience of the
changes in service pay and conditions, which I think London riots, and we have taken the CPS advice,
is reflective of much of theUK; and there are clearly which I think was issued by Keir Starmer in
concerns about thelong hours that they arehaving to December,inrelationtooffencescommittedonsocial
work at the moment to deal with this problem. But I media.WearetalkingaboutthatwithourownPublic
do not think you have an organisation that does so Prosecution Service to see whether we can pursue it.
well against crime and against such difficulty in the Iwouldhavetosay,itisnoteasy.Drewcanbriefyou
current situation unless their commitment and on some of the details, but we have put a number of
motivation is at the highest level, and I absolutely cases to the PPS already that have not reached the
applaud them for that. I could not have asked for evidentialthreshold.
more. In relation to the video and photographs, we have a
veryclearlyworkedoutpolicyandprocedurewithour
Q3 NaomiLong:Ithinkwewouldallrecognisethat Northern Ireland Policing Board, which is very much
hasbeenthecase.Justintermsofsupportforinjured focused on human rights. We will be issuing
officers and officers who have been threatened, significantnumbersofphotographsinduecourse,but
obviously in my own constituency there have been we will go through the process first of all of trying
twoattemptedmurdersofpoliceofficersrecently,one to reach identification before we put them into the
by loyalists and one by republicans. What kind of mediaitself.
supportdotheyreceive,bothfromthePSNIandmore DrewHarris:Justinrespectofwhathasbeensaidin
widely, in terms of being able to deal with those social media, unlike the situation in the summer of
particularissues? 2011, people are not actually directly calling for riot-
Matt Baggott: There is a very clear process of type situations and they are careful in their
working with the officers in relation to their own terminology when using social media, and so it is
individual threats and risks, which can involve a couched in terms of “peaceful protest” as opposed to
whole raft of support services, from obviously the very inflammatory comments that were actually
SPED scheme, through to protective measures, inciting riot or inciting large-scale criminality, be it
throughtooccupationalhealthandwelfare.Soitvery lootingorsomethingelse.So,theactualincitementto
much depends upon the individual circumstances and riot is not found in those comments. Secondly, there
the degree of risk that they are facing, but the PSNI isalotofcommentarythatisabusiveonsocialmedia,
is a very caring organisation and we do ensure that and the issues we have around that are first, the
we do everything possible for both them and their identification, and secondly, the high standard that
families. nowhas beenset intermsof thecriminal standardof
proof around what in normal conversation could be
Q4 Naomi Long: I have a couple of questions regarded as being abusive and what level that needs
regarding the policing of the situation. The first is in toreachintermsofthensustainingprosecution.
relation to social media, which is something that I Other offences do exist if the evidence is there,
have raised with you before, and the use of social obviously—threats to kill, all the issues around
media to orchestrate some of the protests and indeed incitement, and all the issues we have around
some of the violence. There has been a debate as to incitement to hatred as well. These things are all
whetherornotprosecutionscanbesustained.Wesaw covered in legislation but all of those have a high
very swift prosecutions in relation to social media threshold in terms of the evidence required to sustain
with the London riots, for example. Is there a a criminal prosecution, and that has been reinforced
difference in the legal context in Northern Ireland? by recent advice by the CPS. Obviously, we do take
What is the barrier to being able to pursue complaintsabout whatis saidonsocial media.Those
prosecutionsaroundsocialmedia—Facebook,Twitter are investigated, but even going onto a site such as
and so on? Also, recently there was a case taken by Twitter,onsocialmediaoneacceptsthatyoumaysee
an individual who was threatened on Facebook, and stuff that you regard as being distasteful, abusive or
I believe it was a successful prosecution. So, is that insulting.Sothereisaveryhighstandard.
something that the PSNI are actively considering at Now, in terms of the civil standard, where an
thispointintime? individualaskedinthecivilcourtforcommentstobe
The second issue is about video and photographic removed, that is an entirely different set of
evidence.Therehasbeenquitealotcollatedofpeople requirements,andtheindividualwasabletobringthat
involved in riotous behaviour where their faces are themselves because the comments were posted about
clearly seen and where they could be identified. Will that individual, identifying them and identifying their
we be seeing the kinds of photomontages, for occupation. So there was an issue about their
example, that we saw after the Ardoyne situation last reputation, but also their own safety and their safety
summer and that would allow the public to assist the in their employment, and that was dealt with through
police in identifying individuals who have been the civil courts and we were not involved in that
engagedinthatactivity? directly.
NorthernIrelandAffairsCommittee:Evidence Ev3
24January2013 ChiefConstableMattBaggottCBEQPM,DeputyChiefConstableJudithGillespieOBE,
andAssistantChiefConstableDrewHarrisOBE
Q5 Naomi Long: You will, though, have seen some information from getting through? Would that be a
of the comments? I mean, for example, there are useful power to have or do you think it is a bit too
comments on social media that we have recorded heavy-handed?
around people saying things like, “Let’s go smash up Matt Baggott: I have two things on that; my
their office,” for example. I mean that is incitement, colleagues may have their own views. Firstly, I think
surely, to commit an offence, and that would have to itwouldbepotentiallyquitedangerousforpeoplenot
beinvestigatedinthatway. to be able to access the emergency services or
Drew Harris: Yes. That may well amount to a communicate, and we do have powers to use such
criminalincitement,andthenfromtherethatissubject intrusive measures if we have to, but they are used
to investigation. But people are careful about their incrediblysparingly.
identityandswitchidentitiesonsocialmedia,andthat OliverColvile:Sure.
is subject to investigation and we have to work then Matt Baggott: So I think it would be a very difficult
backthroughtheinternetproviderstotrytogetsome thing to do. Secondly I think, apart from the human
senseofwherethatcamefromandwhowasinvolved. rights concerns, that might just make sure this goes
completely underground; we would not have sight or
Q6 MrAnderson:Iamnotquitesurewhatitislike visibility of what people are planning at all, and that
in Northern Irelandbut certainly this side ofthe Irish initselfwouldbeverydifficultforus.
Seathereisstuffcirculatingthatisnotincitingpeople Drew Harris: But practically, what we find is when
to riot but is inciting people to go across to Belfast disorderbreaksout,thesocialmediachatterdwindles
and other places and take part in illegal activity. We toalmostnothing,andsooutsideoftheseeventsthere
heard last week from the Minister that this is about is a lot of social media activity, but actually during
public order, and because none of these seriousdisorderitdwindlesawaytonothing.
demonstrations have got the sanction of the Parades Matt Baggott: Chair, on social media, we have
Commission, they are all illegal acts. Surely, that is actuallyreferredasignificantnumberofcasesalready
something you should be looking at, if only from the to the PPS, and there is not one that has passed the
pointofviewofpreventingpeopletakingpartinthese evidential test. So we are exploring with them, in the
acts before they take place. You have got the power light of the guidance, what might be done. I have
todothat. suggested that this may be something in Northern
Drew Harris: Well, a parade has to be notified under Ireland that the Attorney-General wishes to look at,
the relevant legislation. The only protest that has to specificallyinrelationtotheNorthernIrelandcontext,
benotifiedisaprotestinrespectofanalreadynotified and he could advise the Office of the First Minister
parade, and so an actual protest event not connected andDeputyFirstMinisterwhether thereareanygaps
to a parade falls outside the scope of the parades in current local legislation that would cover this
legislation.Thenweareleftdealingwiththatinterms aspect.
ofitbeingaprotest,whichisthengovernedbypublic
orderlegislation.
Q10 Naomi Long: Just leading on from what we
were discussing and what David raised earlier with
Q7 Mr Anderson: You could apply section 5 of the respect to the illegality of a number of the protests,
PublicOrderActtostoppeoplegoingtothoseplaces there are key elements to this. First of all there is the
whereyoubelievethereisthechanceofaction.Itwas fact that, while even the peaceful protests have often
used widely in 1984 and 1985 in this country to stop not been lawful in terms of blocking roads and
peoplemovingallovertheplace. causing disruption and so on, the other side of it is
DrewHarris:Wedonothavethedirectlegislationto thatalmostonaweeklybasis,therehasbeenanillegal
correspondtothatsection5. paradethathasfollowedtheprotestinthecitycentre.
So we have had people essentially process all along
Q8 Mr Anderson: For people who come from this the main carriageway and back to East Belfast, and
sideoftheIrishSea,youcould. that has been a particular issue. They have also
Drew Harris: I do not really believe we have had a processedtothecitycentrefromdifferentpartsofthe
mass movement of people coming across the channel city for that protest. Those parades are not currently
to get themselves involved in these protests. There being notified to the Parades Commission and the
have undoubtedly been some, but really this is very police are essentially policing them, and therefore
much a local problem in terms of the personalities there is something of a vacuum in terms of their
involved. status.
Could you give us some indication of what impact
Q9 Oliver Colvile: First of all, forgive me but I am youfeelthatmayhaveontheprocessesinthesummer
going to have to leave at 10.30 to go to something as we come into parade season, in terms of people
else, but what I am curious to know is, is it the case essentially going around, rather than through, the
thatthemajorityofthosepeoplewhoareusingsocial Parades Commission? Are you concerned at all that
media obtain that information through their mobile the police will be left in the situation that they were
phones or some mobile activity rather than at home inpriortotheParadesCommissionbeingestablished,
on the computer? And would it be helpful, therefore, where they will effectively hold the ring in making
to have the powers to be able, when something like decisions about where and when parades take place,
this kicks off big time, to just close down the mobile as well as having to police the decision? Do you
phone mast network, which would stop that believe that this is a deliberate tactic or simply an
Ev4 NorthernIrelandAffairsCommittee:Evidence
24January2013 ChiefConstableMattBaggottCBEQPM,DeputyChiefConstableJudithGillespieOBE,
andAssistantChiefConstableDrewHarrisOBE
unintended consequence or risk of the activity that is Q11 NaomiLong:Justtoconfirm,areyouconcerned
goingonatthemoment? thattheparadesissueessentiallyhasbeenplacedina
Matt Baggott: Thank you for that. First of all, the verydifficultcontextcomingintothesummerandthat
Belfast protest has been referred to the Parades the police are being put in an undesirable position,
Commission with regard to working through with because I know it was always the view of the PSNI
them what the implication of that is in relation to the that you would not end up making decisions about
ParadesCommission’srole,itsresponsibilitiesandthe paradesandthenpolicingthem?
framework, and I understand that the Parades MattBaggott:Iamconcerned;Ikeepusingtheword
Commission iscurrently seekingits own legaladvice safety. There has to be a respected regulatory body
on that. I do not have a timescale for that, but I thatcanmakedeterminationsabouttheroutesandthe
thought it was right, firstly because of our legal duty, boundariesaroundparades,particularlywhenyouare
and secondly because if the Parades Commission dealing with over 3,000 in the summer. The parading
probably exists for anything, it exists to deal with seasonactuallystartsinafewweeks’time,andatthe
publicsafety,andIquiteagreewiththecomments. moment I think what we have seen in the last six
At the moment we have a large gathering of people; weeksandbeyondthathaspotentiallyunderminedthe
on Saturday it was well over 1000. Without proper authority of a body that was set up originally—and
stewarding, proper boundaries and proper regulation the Deputy and Drew are much more in favour of
it becomes a significant matter of public crowds in a this—to deal with issues of public safety. So, that is
public space, and that has huge safety implications. the concern I have. With regard to whether it gets
Soweareconcernedaboutthat,butwehavereferred replaced or what replaces it, I think that is a matter
it to the Parades Commission and asked them to for the politicians to decide. I am quite adamant that
considerthisandtheirownresponsibilities.Inrelation Idonotwantpolicingbeingputinthemiddleofbeing
to the actual protests themselves and our role, I am the arbiter of this and going back to the days when
veryclearonthis.Ourroleprimarilyhastobearound policing was accused of being politically biased one
article2,whichisprotectionoflifeandproperty.Our way or the other. I think this is a decision that has to
decision making starts with that criteria, and I think be made by politicians, but it does need a firm
thatisaveryhelpfulone. regulatoryframework.
Then obviously we consider the right of assembly, Chair:Thankyou.Wewillmoveonnow.
which is quite difficult and complex in terms of law
because the law sort of says you can have a right to Q12 David Simpson: You are very welcome, the
assembly, even if it involves some degree of three of you; it is good to see you again. In your
disruptionandbreachesofthelaw,ifitisreasonable. opening statement you mentioned briefly, Chief
So wehave to consider thatat the same time,but the Constable, social deprivation and maybe education. I
safety aspect is the first one. The law enforcement knowyoutouchedonitvery,verybriefly,butdoyou
aspect of that is that clearly we do not want large believe that the flag issue itself was just a catalyst to
numbersblockingtheroads.Thatisaninconvenience other underlying issues as regards investment? We
andagainitisasafetyissue.Butwhatwehavetodo have heard terminology used about engagement with
islookatanumberoflevelsofpublicsafety.Thefirst politicians and others. There are that many political
is in relation to the individual protest. If we have 40 offices around Belfast, I fail to see how that is the
or 50 people there in a road, clearly we will try to case. But that is the sort of message we are getting
negotiate ormove them,but wehave toconsider that back. Are there more deep-rooted issues there and
also against the backdrop of potentially 50 or 60 why do you think—you may have touched on this in
protests. If we take one of those protests out and tie yourpreviouscomments—ithaslastedsolong?
up three TSGs, we then lose significant numbers to MattBaggott:Tocoverthefirstpointfirst,Ithinkthe
deal with the potential outbreak of serious disorder flag issue has created a rallying point for a raft of
laterdowntheline.So,itisacombinationofdecision grievances, concerns and historical issues that are
making around safety for the individual protest, the beyond the flag itself and the decision made by the
combination of all the protests added together, what City Council. I think that is undoubtedly the case. If
the intelligence picture is telling us around where we you listen to the people who have been bringing
might get serious violence and the need to retain peopleoutontothestreets,theyhavebroughttogether
resourcestodealwiththat. a whole range of individual grievances with other
What will not be compromised in the long term is concerns. So, I think it is a rallying point. Secondly,
justiceinrelationtoparticularlyseriousoffending.We withregardtotheintenseareasofdisorder,theyhave
have taken about six weeks, about the same time I followed historical places of high disadvantage and
think as the Met took, to put together a significant highdeprivation.
team of 70 people headed by a detective So,Ido notthinkthedeprivationis thecausalfactor,
superintendent, who at the moment are working but I think when you have concerns, tension and
through many hours of evidence gathering. Now, if social tension in particular, it tends to manifest itself
wecannotdealwithitatthetime,weevidence-gather, in violence in areas where historically we have had
and that will follow the due process. Well over 170 paramilitarycontrol,wherewehavehadyoungpeople
people have already been arrested in relation to these growing up without a huge degree of employment
protests,andover120havebeencharged.Thatisnot opportunity and where there are, for example,
an insignificant number, but that will grow significantly higher suicide rates. I am very much
significantlyintheweeksandmonthsthatfollow. aware of the effort that is going in at the moment to
NorthernIrelandAffairsCommittee:Evidence Ev5
24January2013 ChiefConstableMattBaggottCBEQPM,DeputyChiefConstableJudithGillespieOBE,
andAssistantChiefConstableDrewHarrisOBE
try to resolve those issues, but the disorder we have nobody seems to be in control of that and it lends
had over the last seven to eight weeks has been in itselftothepolice,ofcourse,tohavetoreassertgood
areas of particular, I would say, historical order. But on some nights we have had up to 300 to
disadvantage. 400youngpeoplerioting.Ithinkhalfthosewhohave
beenarrestedsofarareundertheageof21,whichin
Q13 David Simpson: Can I cut across just on one itself is a reflection of a generation of young people
point? Your community officers, I assume, would still growing up without sufficient purpose in their
engage with the community groups in that area and lives.
therewouldbethenormalcontact.Whatfeedbackare
you getting back from community groups? What are Q14 IanPaisley:Justonthebackofthat—andagain
the issues?I mean we hearso much in thepress, and I add my words of welcome to you and your team,
I repeat again what I have said, about disengagement Chief—hadyouanyintelligenceemergingpriortothe
and all of those things, but I know the PSNI do a lot removal of the flag at City Hall that indicated that
of work with different youth groups and all the rest. there was going to be unrest on the sort of scale that
Whatfeedbackdoyourcommunityofficersgetonthe wehaveseen?
ground? What really is the root cause of this? We DrewHarris:No,therewasnoindicationofthescale
know the flag issue is a catalyst and all the rest, but of it and how long it would keep going. I think, just
whatareyouhearing? inrelationtowhatMrSimpsonwasalsosayingabout
Matt Baggott: It is very mixed feedback. First, on howlongthishasnowgoneonfor,wearenowinour
behalf of the neighbourhood officers and us, we have eighth week; some of that is actually a feature of
a part to play in this but we are obviously not the socialmediaandtheabilitytoreachouttootherlike-
solution. minded people and coalesce together and organise
DavidSimpson:No. using social media, and that has no doubt kept some
Matt Baggott: I think there is a very heavy emphasis momentum in it. Also, there were still unresolved
placed upon police officers to try to be the solution issues from the summer’s marching season of last
throughtheenforcementoflaw.Thatisimportant,but year,whichendedonquiteabitternoteintheendand
itisnotthesolution.Whatwegetbackishowfragile which remained unresolved, and that has added into
the views of the people that live across the road still thisprotestaswell.
are.The suspicionand themistrustthat peoplehoped
would be resolved very quickly have not been, and I Q15 Ian Paisley: Your answer does seem to suggest
think those old views remain entrenched by thatthespark,assomepeoplesay,wasanattackona
sometimes the boundaries of the estate, the murals, symbol or the removal of a symbol. That has really
the storytelling, the mythology. What we are picking been more than a catalyst but really has been
up is that a significant number of young people are something that has caught everyone unawares—that
still growing up believing that there is an enemy theremovalofthathasprickedpeopleintoaction.
acrossthe road,andwehave tonamethatfor whatit Drew Harris: There is a lot of anger out there, very
is,whichisverysad.Ithinkthatisprobablywhywe obviously, about this, and there has been enough
still have more peace walls now than we had in the emotiontokeepitgoingnowforeightweeksaswell.
GoodFridayAgreement. Itjustseemedforalotofpeoplethatthiswasjusttoo
Thereisanawfullotthatisgoingonthatisgood,let farforthem,andofficersonthegroundaresubjected
me say, to counterbalance that. I was out at to this anger and it is very clear as well, looking at
BallymacarrettmyselfinNovember,meetingsomeof social media, the amount of anger there is, and it is
the youth workers there, and undoubtedly there are reflected both in the protests but also then obviously
things happening below the radar that are incredibly unfortunately in criminality and threats and all that
positive.But thereisanawful lotofworkto bedone whichhasflowedfromit.Butundoubtedly,thisseems
still to deal with historical enmity. I think one of the tohavetouchedanerve.
problems—it is an issue that we have been working Ian Paisley: I sense in my own work in the
on ourselves through what we call our Collaborative communitythatthatnervehasbeentouchedinpeople
WorkinginDisadvantagedAreasprogramme—isthat who have no truck at all with protests or riots, and
there is a lack of joined-up social planning in those people who are law-abiding citizens are just
areasbecauseofthewayinwhichpoliticsisdivided. completely scundered, if that is the right word, by
Different departments are run by different political what has happened, in terms of an attack on their
parties,andIthinkthatmakesitveryhardinspiteof symbol. This is something we really have to get to
the existence of the East Belfast task group, for gripswithandaddress.Thankyou.
example, to actually look at five or 10-year
improvement plans for particular areas that look at Q16 Nigel Mills: Mr Baggott, I think in your last
thehousing,theenvironment,thehighways,theyouth statement you were talking about there being a lot of
provision and education as an entity as opposed to young people with not enough to do who were
separate provisions being provided by different perhapsoutformischief,andthishasnowdraggedon
departments.SoIthinksomeofthatisagap,andmy for eightweeks. Couldyou havebeen alittle tougher
colleagueswouldsaythattomeatthesametime. at the start in trying to get people off the street and
Some of it I think is quite frankly young people get them arrested and charged with something?
withoutenoughtodo.Wehavehadhundredsofyoung Perhaps the feeling of what we learnt from the riots
people on the streets some nights rioting where over here last year was that a tougher policing
Ev6 NorthernIrelandAffairsCommittee:Evidence
24January2013 ChiefConstableMattBaggottCBEQPM,DeputyChiefConstableJudithGillespieOBE,
andAssistantChiefConstableDrewHarrisOBE
approach was needed rather than perhaps a gentle dissidentrepublicanism,dealingwithorganisedcrime,
hopingitdiesdownatthestart.Iacceptthatwehave managing public protection and delivering personal
very different situations, but with hindsight do you policing,andthatcanonlyworkproperlywhenpeople
wishyoucouldhavebeenalittletougheratthestart? either adhere to what the law says, or we have short-
Matt Baggott: Actually I do not, and I will be very term issues of major disorder or protest, or we have
clear about this, for a number of reasons. I might theconsentofthepeople.SoIamverynervousabout
invite the Deputy to speak a little bit about her thenumbershere.
experience, and perhaps Drew, of policing in the last
few decades. First, I think it is important to note that Q17 David Simpson: Can I cut across, just on what
it wasdifferent, andI am gratefulfor yoursaying so, youaresayingaboutthenumbers?Imean,isthatthe
because I think there is a danger of making false issuehere?ThenatureofNorthernIrelandbeingwhat
comparisons between what happened in London, it is—yes we have moved a long way, but is it the
Manchester and Birmingham. I think the similarity casethatthenumbersaretoofinetohandledifficulties
therewastheroleofsocialmediaingalvanisinglarge when it comes to a certain point? We know we no
numbers of people on to the street very quickly. But longer have the large numbers that you had at the
they are so different as almost to be incomparable. height of the troubles, but there are almost 50% less
Onewasessentiallymasslootingonavastscale.Ours or thereabouts than what we had, so when there is a
touches on deep-seated sectarian views, miles and difficulty the PSNI seem to come under severe
miles of peace walls, large areas of disadvantage, pressure to try to cope with it. You mentioned earlier
which are open to manipulation, and, to be frank, is onthat,ifthereisanissue,youmoveinwiththeriot
aimed at the police, involving not just petrol bombs squadtodealwithit;whathappensinanotherpartof
but blast bombs, potentially, and a significant threat the city? You seem to be stretched. That is only my
fromballisticattack. observation; I could be totally wrong. But you seem
So they are very, very different, both in terms of the tobestretched.
nature, the cause, the level and the intensity of the Matt Baggott: I will come back to the numbers issue
violence directed at the police, and the consequence. in a minute. I do not think the issue is simply about
I cautioned our media over there about making these numbers. When thousands decide to engage in civil
comparisonsbecauseitistooneatandtoosimple,and disobedience, even if you have 12,000 or 15,000 or
it lends itself to an expectation that policing is the 20,000 people, it still is a huge problem for you, and
solution,whichitisnot,andthatbyitselfisdangerous wehavetoworkhardnowatfindingasolutiontothe
because policing has a role to play but only in the grievances. Weare currentlylooking at ourresilience
context of a political consensus, and only a political again. As you will be aware, two years ago we made
consensus. thecase—andthatwasverywellsupported,andthank
Do I wish we had been harder at the beginning? The youforthatindeed—thatthepeacedividendhadbeen
judgmentswehavetomakeonthisarequitecomplex takentooearly.Inrelationparticularlytodealingwith
and they are reviewed literallyevery day. Firstly, had counter-terrorismanddissidentthreatandmanaginga
we been overzealous and just literally gone and tried whole raft of other responsibilities, we were not
to move people off the roads in a very, very robust sufficiently resourced. The £245 million we were
way, my sense is the tension was such and still givenoverfouryearsbytheTreasuryIthinkhasbeen
remains such that we might have ended up with wisely invested in technology and people, and last
10,000 on the street, 20,000 on the street or perhaps year, for example, we arrested over 170 people in
even more on the street. Although the intelligence relationtoterroristactivity.
picturearoundtheviolencewasnotclear,overthelast So that has been incredibly important in keeping the
six months we have had growing tension in relation peace and freeing up people to actually deliver
toparadesandactivityoutsideplacesofworship.The policing with the community. I think we need to
Covenant parade itself was incredibly difficult, and review again at the moment, in the light of the last
we still have large teams of detectives investigating sixmonthsofprotestfollowedbyprotestfollowedby
significantdifficultiesthen. protest, the level of resourcing we have, because the
So,Ithinktensionhasbeen growingoverthelastsix consequence at the moment is not so much about
months in relation to this and other matters, and the beingabletocontainit,whichwecan,butthefactwe
flag issue gave it, if you like, a cause. I have taken a aredoingthatbystrippingoutdistrictpolicing.Iwant
huge amount of advice from colleagues around the those police officers delivering neighbourhood
tablehere.Iamveryblessedwithhavingateamwith policing,dealingwithstreet-dealingandallthethings
over150yearsofpolicingexperience,muchofwhich thatgowith amodernpoliceservice thatisoperating
is previous RUC and PSNI experience, let alone the within a democratic framework. So, I will hand over
people we speak to every day, and their caution was, to the Deputy, who may wish to say some things on
“Ofcourseyouhavegottobeseentobelookingafter thisaswell.
safety and enforcing the law, but if you are Judith Gillespie: This goes to the point about
overzealous on this, there could well be a reaction,” resilience and morale, because this period of disorder
andthatgoesbackintohistory. follows hot on the heels of what has been a long
Secondly, we are an organisation that is geared up to summer and along autumn in terms ofmarching and
operate within a democratic framework. We are no paradestension,andpriortothatofcoursewehadthe
longer 15,000-strong plus the Army. We are 7,000- Olympic torch run and all the jubilee events, which
strongandtacklingasignificantthreatfromterrorism, put quite a considerable strain on resources as well.