Conversations With Anthony Giddens: Making Sense of Modernity

122 Pages·1998·12.22 MB·English

by  Anthony Giddens

Conversations with
Anthony Giddens has been described as 'the most important
English social philosopher of our time'. Over twenty-five years,
and even more books, he has established himself as the most
widely-read and widely-cited social theorist of his generation.
His ideas have profoundly influenced the writing and teaching of
sociology and social theory throughout the English-speaking
world. In recent years, his writing has become much more
explicitly political, and in 1996 he took up his high-profile
appointment as Director of the London School of Economics and
Political Science. It is in this new position and with these new
political ideas that he has been described as the key intellectual
figure of New Labour in Britain. Following the astonishing
Making Sense of Modernity
success of Labour in the 1997 General Election, his ideas have
been the focus of intense interest.
In this series of extended interviews with Christopher Pierson,
Giddens lays out with customary clarity and directness the
principal themes in the development of his social theory and the
distinctive political agenda which he recommends.
This volume will be of great interest to 2nd- and 3rd-year
students in sociology and social theory, politics and political
theory, as well as to the generaIreader.
Anthony Giddens is Director of the London ~chool of Economics
and Political Science. Christopher Pierson is Professor of Politics
at the University of Nottingham.
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Anthony
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Copyright© AnthonyGiddensandChristopherPierson1998 Contents
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Firstpublishedin 1998byPolityPressinassociationwithBlackwell
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The SociologyofAnthonyGiddens:
reproduced,storedinaretrievalsystem,or transmitted,inanyformor.by
An Introduction (Martin O'Brien) 1
anymeans,electronic,mechanical,photocopying,recordingorotherwIse,
withoutthepriorpermissionofthepublisher.
InterviewOne: Lifeand Intellectual Career 28
Exceptin theUnitedStatesofAmerica, thisbookissoldsubjectto the InterviewTwo: The Sociological Classics andBeyond 52
conditionthatitshallnot,bywayoftrade orotherwise, belent,re-sold,
hiredout,orotherwisecirculated\~ithoutthepublisher'spriorconsentin Interview Three: Structuration Theory 75
anyformofbindingorcoverotherthanthatinwhichitispublishedand
withoutasimilarconditionincludingthisconditionbeingimposedon Interview Four: Modernity 94
thesubsequentpurchaser.
Interview Five: From the Transformation of
ISBN0-7456-2048-5 Intimacy to Life Politics 118
ISBN0-7456-2049-3 (pbk)
Interview Six: PoliticsBeyondLeftand Right 151
Acataloguerecordforthisbookisavailablefrom theBritishLibrary.
InterviewSeven: World Politics 170
Typesetin lIon BY,ptBerkelyMediumbyAceFilmsetting
CentreLeftat Centre Stage 194
Printedand bound byTJInternational Lld, Padslow, Cornwall
Thisbookisprintedonacid-freepaper.
vi Contents
The Politics ofRiskSociety 204
Beyond Chaos and Dogma ... 218
Risks, Scares, Nightmares 227 Preface
AsMartinO'Brien'sintroductoryessaymakesclear,Anthony
Giddensissomethingofasocialsciencephenomenon. Over
aquarterofacenturyofunrelentingproductivity, hehasbe
come established as one of the world's most authoritative
and widely cited social theorists. His interests are remark
ably diverse, from the driest of Continental philosophy to
thetherapy-speakoftheself-helpmanual,andhisworkbuilds
upon a critical engagement with an extraordinary array of
texts from within and way beyond the canon of the social
sciences. Hehashelpedtodevelopawholenewlexiconwith
whichwecangraspwhatitmeanstoliveintherapidlychang
ing world ofmodernity: structuration, practical conscious
ness, time-spacedistanciation,manufacturedrisk,lifepolitics.
Asifthis werenotquiteenough, Giddens hasalsomade the
timetoco-foundhisownpublishinghouse,headup thenew
Faculty ofSocial and Political Sciences at the University of
Cambridge, and still bear witness to the failure of his be
lovedSpursfootball teamtorecreatethesuccessesofhisnorth
London youth.
In 1997,Giddens tookup his mostsignificantchallengeas
Director of the London School ofEconomics. Giddens has a
viii Preface Preface ix
veryclearviewofthespecial role ofthe LSE. The Schoolhas work fizzes with challenging ideas and provocative sugges
always been engaged in a special way with the real world of tions. Others willsimplywant to admire and learn from this
politics and policy-making, especially in periods of system intellectual tourdeforce,
atic reform. In recent years, Giddens has himself shown an
increasinginterestinandengagementwiththeworldofmain Chris Pierson
stream politics and, since arriving at the LSE, has rapidly set Nottingham
about creating the links that will make the School's 'special March 1998
relationship' with the widerworld ofpolitical practicework
ThatthearrivalofanewandactivistDirectorattheLSEshould
be so closely followed by the election of the first centre-left
governmentforagenerationhasmadeforexcitingtimes.And
Giddens's beliefin the importance ofthe 'radical centre' and
of a 'Third Way' that goes 'beyond right and left' has made
him a popular and influential figure at the top of the New
Labour hierarchy.
The interviews which make up the greater part of this
bookwereallconductedwithinmonths ofGiddens'sarrival
at the LSE and in the aftermath ofthe New Labour success
of 1 May 1997. They seek to cover the full range of his
thought since the early 1970s, beginning with his engage
ment with the makers of'classical' sOciology and conclud- '
ingwith his thoughts on the nature ofworldpoliticsunder
'reflexive modernity', The style is conversational and tech
nical jargon is kept to a minimum. I have tried to ask the
questions which any interested reader might pose and left
Giddens to answer in his own, uniquely clear and concise
voice.
Giddensremainsacontroversialfigure. Hiscriticsinsistthat
hisworkisnotjustWide-ranginganddiversebutshallowand
eclectic.Theyarguethatheneverstaysinonespotlongenough
eithertobepinneddownorto establishthetruthofwhat (for
them) remain largely unsubstantiated conjectures. But even
his fiercest critics would find it hard to deny that Giddens"s
Acknowledgements The Sociology of
Anthony Gidde11s: An
Introduction
Martin O'Brien
The editors and publishers wish to thank the following for
permission to use copyrightmaterial:
Anthony Giddens is one ofthe leadingBritish sociologists of
LondonReviewofBooksforAnthonyGiddens,'Risks,Scares, the post-war period. His writings spanmore than three dec
Nightmares' (review: 'Why sounding the alarm on chemical ades ofsocial and political change and have beenat the fore
contamination is notnecessarily alarmist'), London Review oj front ofthe development ofsociological theory and practice
Books, 5.9.96; in the 1980s and 19905. His interpretations of the classical
sociological traditions havebeenacentralpillarofmuch un
Polity Press for Anthony Giddens, 'The Politics ofRiskSoci
dergraduateandpostgraduateteachinginsociological theory
ety' ('Risk Society: the Context of British Politics') inJane
for twentyyears (and continue to be so) and his imaginative
Franklin, ed., The Politics ojRiskSociety (1997) pp. 23-34;
reconstructionofsociology's central concernshasstimulated
NewStatesmanLtdforAnthonyGiddens,'Beyondchaosand academic debate and intellectual controversyin equal meas
dogma.. .', New Statesman, 31.10.97; and Anthony Giddens, ure. Heisanagenda-settingsocialtheorist,avirtualone-man
'Centreleftatcentrestage',New Statesman,May1997,Special publishing industry, and a political philosopher of growing
edition. influence,andhehasnowtakenontheprofessionalchallenge
of directing the London School of Economics and Political
Everyefforthasbeenmade to trace the copyrightholdersbut Science in the uncertain era of the first Labour government
ifanyhavebeeninadvertentlyoverlookedthe publisherswill since the 1970s.
be pleasedto make thenecessaryarrangementat the firstop InintroducingtheextraordinarybreadthofGiddens'sthink
portunity. ing to the new reader, Iwillfocus on the outlines ofhis over
allproject,ratherthanonthecriticaldetailsofanyofitsspecific
2 The Sociology ofAnthony Giddens The Sociology ofAnthonyGiddens 3
aspects. In particular, I will emphasize the connections be they are disputing the complex intersections between dif
tween the different strands ofhis diverse output in order to ferent layers of social experience and action. Sociologists
provideaconceptualmapofhis theoreticalandphilosophical must develop alternative kinds of explanation for each of
thinking. Inthisway, Iwantbothtogiveasenseoftheimpor these social forces because there is not one unique cause
tance ofhis work and to disclose some of the critical ques andcharacterofthebasicrelationshipsbetweenindividuals
tions that his reconstructionofsociologyraises. Ibeginwith andsociety.
somecommentsonGiddens'sunderstandingofthediscipline To take another example, a chemist, in seeking to under
of sociology before going on to sketch in some of the main standthepropertiesofwater,neednotwonderwhethersome
contours ofhis work atoms of hydrogen intended to bond with some atoms of
oxygentoproduceapond,alakeoranocean;evenlesswhat
itmeans to thedifferenthydrogenatoms to get togetherwith
The sociological enterprise oxygenatomstomakewater. Asociologist,ontheotherhand,
is faced precisely with the problem that people have
According to Giddens, sociology is a special kind of intel motivations and purposes for doing what they do, that
lectual discipline. Unlike physical scientists, a sociologist (mostly) they know why they are doing the things they do,
seeks to understand a world that is already understood by and that the meaning oftheir actions and interactions is, at
its members. The 'objects' of sociological inquiry - what leasttosomedegree, transparent to them. Whilstthehydro
people say and do, what they believe and desire, how they gen and oxygen atoms did not intend to produce the lake
construct institutions and interact with each other - are or the ocean, people manifestly do intend to get married
unliketheobjectsofnaturalsciences,suchasphysics,chem or divorced, live in town or countryside, work for wages
istry or biology, in so far as people's actions and inter or employ others to do so for them. It may be that some
actions, theirbeliefs and desires, area centralfeature ofthe peoplegetmarriedorgo toworkinspiteofthefactthatthey
worldthatthesociologistinvestigates.Moreover, thisworld do not want to, but they couldnot marry orworkuninten
cannot be reduced to one 'correct' set of meanings or ex tionally. Thus, unlike the natural sciences, sociology must
planatorysystem. Thesocialworldisirreduciblycharacter seektounderstand therelationshipsbetweenpeople'sinten
ized by competing and sometimes conflicting frames of tionsandpurposesand thecharacterofthesocialworldthey
meaning, understandings, and patterns of belief. When inhabit.
physicistsdisputewitheachotheraboutwhether(andwhy) Thesociologicalproblem, however,is yetfurther compli
the universe is expanding, they are disputing the single, cated by the fact that sociologists belong to the world they
unique cause and character of the basic physical relation research: they employ the same kinds ofeveryday routines
shipsbetweenenergyandmatter. Whensociologistsdispute to manage their lives and engage in meaningful actions and
witheachotheraboutwhether(andwhy) societyisdivided interactions with the people and institutions which are the
by relationships of class, gender, ethnicity or personality; objects of their study. The social being of the sociologist,
4 TheSociology ofAnthony Giddens The Sociology ofAnthonyGiddens 5
including what the sociologist knows about the objects of 'charisma' ofreligious and political leaders, or 'moral pan
herresearch isil1escapablymediatedbythesocialworldshe ics' - are now widely used in the media and in ordinary;
1
inhabits. In accoUl1ting for that world the sociologist must everydaydiscussions. Socialresearch into divorce rates, the
draw upon the common-sense understandings and the so distribution ofhealth and illness, income and lifestyle, the
ciallyembeddedbeliefsandmeanings thatmakeitwhatitis. effects ofthe media, patterns offamily formation and much
Whereas the chemist in my earlier example does not and moreisnowacentralpillaroflocaland nationalpolicy for
cannotdrawuponthehydrogenatom's accountofitsphysi mulation. Sociological knowledge is destined to become
cal existence, the sociologist must draw upon people's ordi 'what everyone knows' because sociological knowledge is
naryaccountsoftheirsocialexistence.Thesociologistisfirst preciselyoneofthemainmeansbywhichmembersofmod
andforemost an ordinary member ofthe world she investi em society come to understand and account for the work
gates whose explanations ofthat world, like those ofevery ings of that society. Sociological knowledge enters into,
other individual within it, are part and parcel of its basic becomes a part of and.helps to transform the very world
character. thatitseeksto explainandanalyse(seeGiddens, 1996:4-5,
In this respect, the sociologist's task - ofexplaining how 77). In this respect, the sociological enterprise is a critical
the social world works or how and why a society is organ endeavour: itdraws upon the ordinarymeaningssharedby
izedinoneway rather thananother- appears, atfirst sight, people insocietybutreformulates andexpands them in or
asasecond-orderaccount,orgloss,onhowallofus ordinar der to assist in the process ofpositive social change. It is a
ily explain the worldfor ourselves. Afterall, ifpeopleknow conscious exercise in what Giddens calls social reflexiVity
what they are doing and why, at least most of the time, (which Iexplainin more detail below): the reflective appli
if they know and understand the causes and consequences cation of knowledge about the social world to meet the
oftheirdaily,routineactivities, thenthesociologist'saccount challengesofnewcircumstancesandconditionsin thesocial
merelyadds to the totalnumberofexplanationsoftheworld world. Statedthus, theideaappearsalluringlysimple,butits
that can be given and is neither more nor less inSightful, emergence in Giddens's work and its diffusion throughout
rigorous or accurate than any other. What, then, does the professional sociology have involved a long and arduous
sociologist do that might lead anyone to suppose that a expeditionthroughthejunglesofclassicalandcontemporary
profeSSional sociologist's account of the world had any sociological thought.
value?
Giddens's response is to propose thatsociologyperforms
a'doublehermeneutic':itspiralsinandoutoftheknowledges Settling accounts with the classics
of everyday life. Its fate is always to become entangled in
the common-sense accounts bywhichpeople explain their Giddens began writing and publishing on classical socio
world. Concepts and ideas that have been extensively de logical theory in the late 1960s. At the time, the disciplines
velopedinsociology,notesGiddens-like'socialstatus', the understanding of the works of classical theorists (notably
6 The Sociology ofAnthony Giddens The SOciology ofAnthony Giddens 7
Marx, Weber and Durkheim) was dominated by American methods and guidance, attempted to show the objective
traditions- and, inparticular,bythewritingsofTalcottPar correlations between rates of suicide and various external
sons. Notonlywere these traditions dominantin interpret factors such as urban isolation (Sainsbury, 1955). The
ing the classics, they also tended to be dominant in phenomenological approach, drawing on the philosophy
determining how theseshouldbe applied to practicalprob ofEdmund Husserl, investigated how the event ofa death
lems such as deviance, health and illness, mass media ef is given the subjective meaning of 'suicide', under what
fects, or social integration, for example. During the 1960s circumstancesandwithwhatconsequences.Whilsttheposi
Giddensaddressedbothofthesetendenciessimultaneously. tivist view accepts official data on suicide rates as present
In relation to the first, he reconsidered the sociologies of ing, more or less, an accuratepictureofitssocialreality, the
Marx,Weber, DurkheimandSimmeL In relation to thesec phenomenological view undermines this idea by showing
ond, he expended a great deal of energy on reconsidering that cultural and subcultural factors influence whether
the sOciology of suicide. The choice of this problem as a anyparticulardeathwillorwillnotbeclassifiedassuicide
vehicle through which to explore sociological theory was either officially or otherwise (see Douglas, 1967). The 'two
significantinanumberofways. Itwassignificantbecauseit sociologies' division, in relation to the suicide problem,
ledGiddens to asystematicreappraisaloftheworkofEmile canbesummedup intheform oftwo contrastingquestions:
Durkheim- whoseownstudyofSuicidein1897(Durkheim, is the sociological concept of suicide equivalent only to
1897) hadrepresentedan attemptto castthenewdiscipline what is officially recorded as suicide by coroners and other
ofsociologyasapositive, objectivescienceofsociety. Itwas functionaries? Alternatively, is it the task of sociology to
Significant also because, as Durkheim had recognized, the probe the cultures and subcultures in which people under
study of suicide exposes a fundamental theoretical task of stand and give personal significance to deaths as suicidal
sociological inquiry. That task is to reveal how a social sci- . events?
ence which deals with social forces, social structures and Inspiteofexpendingmuchintellectualenergyon this co
social action can understand an event that, common nundrum,Giddens'sapproachto thespecificquestionofsui
sensically, appears intensely personal and private. A third cide in sociological theory has not been widely adopted by
way in which the problem of suicide was Significant was the social science community, partly because the analytical
that, in his treatment of the topic, Giddens was forced to problemofsuicidedroppedoffsociology'sintellectualagenda.
addressa radicaldivisionwithinsociologybetween two ap Buthis exposure to the problems that it throws up have re
parentlyopposedandmutuallyexclusiveapproaches to the verberated throughout his work ever since. From the early
study ofa common problem- the 'positivist' approach and 1970s,thesuicideproblembegins to dropoffGiddens'sown
the'phenomenological'approach representingtwodistinct theoretical agenda and he takes up, instead, some of the
sociologies inhabiting the post-war academy (see Dawe, broader theoreticalissues that were raised by his encounter
1970). with it. In particular, the effort to interweave the positivist
In brief, the positivist approach, drawing on Durkheim's strand of Durkheim's thought with the phenomenological
8 The Sociology ofAnthony Giddens The Sociology ofAnthony Giddens 9
strand of Husserl's philosophy, although often not explicit, The titleofthis(1976) bookisinstructivefor severalrea
characterizes his writings throughout the 1970s and early sons. LikeGiddens'searlierfocus on thesuicideproblemin
1980s. sociology, the title ofthe 1976bookrecalls thesignificance
In 1971,GiddenspublishedCapitalismandModern Social of Emile Durkheim to contemporary sociology. In 1895,
Theory, a book which remained his best-known work for Durkheimpublishedhisstatementofwhatsociologyshould
sometenyearsandwhich- remarkably,giventhenumerous beinTheRulesofSociologicalMethod(1895).ForDurkheim,
texts on thesame topics thathaveappearedsince- remains sociology is a systematic, disciplined, empirical science
one of the most valuable sources on Marx, Weber and which treats theworldas asourceofobjective data, compa
Durkheim. The book signalled the beginning of an exten rable to the natural sciences and uninfluenced by the sub
siveassessmentofthe complexlayersofsociologicaltheory jectivebeliefs and intentions ofits members. For Giddens,
inwhichGiddensisstillengaged. In 1972tworelatedbooks in contrast, renewingsociology'soutlookin thesecond half
appeared. One was an edited collection of Durkheim's of the twentieth century requires that the subjective be
writings (Giddens, 1972a), the other a short reflection on brought back into the sociological fold although in ways
MaxWeber'ssocialandpoliticalwritings(Giddens, 1972b). not envisaged by Durkheim. In short, for Giddens, sociol
The next year saw the publication of The Class Structure of ogy should attend to the world as aworld thatholds mean
theAdvancedSocieties (Giddens, 1973),whichwasfollowed ing and personal significance for its members, whose
in 1974byan editedcollectionon positivismandsociology intentions,inonewayoranother,arecentraltosociological
(Giddens, 1974) and a collection onelites inBritishsociety understanding. Otherwise, the discipline has no hope of
(Giddens and Stanworth, 1974). Throughout this time explaininghoweach individual contributes to andhelps to
Giddens was also busy writing articles for the professional shape the collective history ofsociety. New Rules ofSocio
press and in 1977 a collection ofthese essays appeared un logical Method is at the same time an acknowledgement of
der the title Studies in Social and Political Theory (Giddens, the importance ofDurkheim to Giddens's sociology and a
1977). These essays extende~ Giddens's treatment of the settling of accounts with the Durkheimian tradition. Al
sociological classicsand also engagedwith otherimportant though the focus ofthe book is a critique ofinterpretative
and emerging traditions in social science represented by, (or,loosely, phenomenological) sociologies, itis also a con
amongst others, Talcott Parsons and structural functional scious acknowledgement of the need to go beyond
ism, Jurgen Habermas and critical theory, and Harold Durkheim. After thepublicationofNew Rules,a freshchap
Garfinkelandethnomethodology. In this periodoftheoreti ter in Giddens's sociology begins and his new paradigm,
calandphilosophicalreflection,Giddensestablishedthebasis structurationtheOlY,isgivenitsfirstsystematicoutline, three
onwhich his laterwritings would proposea new sociologi years later, in Central Problems in Social Theory (Giddens,
cal paradigm, structurationtheory, whoseoutlineswere ten 1979).
tatively hinted at in New Rules of Sociological Method
(Giddens, 1976).
10 The Sociology ofAnthony Giddens The SOciology ofAnthony Giddens 11
not the sole privilege of professional SOciologists. People's
The theory ofstructuration routinebehaviourbothexposesandexpressestheimportance
of sociological knowledges in the conduct of everyday life.
I have spent some time on Giddens's relationship to Conversational rules, behavioural expectations or intimate
Durkheim's sociology, in particular, because it is central to interpersonal rituals, for example, are embedded in know
his- orany proposedreconstructionofthediscipline.This ledgeabout how andwhysociallife happens: whospeaks or
isnot tosay thatotherclassicalsociologists MarxandWe issilent andwhen, who stands orsits and why, who belongs
ber,inparticular- havenotbeenimportantin his work, for or does notand where, who is revered or reviled and how
theyhave. ButDurkheimis the most importantclassicalin these are mundane constituents of everyday sociologies.
fluence in structuration theory because his legacy leads Knowledge (howeverpartialorfragmenteditmayappear) of
Giddens to adoptahighlyfonnaland abstractideaof'social how the social world works is embedded in the day-to-day
structure'. Whereas Marx, for example, described the struc actions and interactions of people living out their lives. It
tures of the capitalist system often in the most vivid and forms 'practicalsociologies' thatpeopleusewithout, usually,
graphic detail - the factories, the slums and warrens, the consciously thinking about them. Such knowledge of how
engines ofproduction, the opulence ofthe bourgeois class, the world works is analogous to the rules of language use.
theinevitabledenigrationanddegradationoftheproletariat, Competentspeakers ofa language can use rules ofgrammar
theformation ofworking-class movements and parties, and in order to communicate with each other but they do not
so on Durkheim described structures indirectly, by anal need to make their grammatical knowledge an explicit fea
ogy with the cells and organs ofliving bodies. Social struc ture ofwhat they are saying. Indeed, ifspeakers and hearers
of
tures were held together by'the glue 'social bonds' that alwayshadtoestablishrulesofgrammareverytimetheycom
were only visible to the sociologist abstractly as more or municatedsomething,theywouldcommunicateverylittleat
lessstableandorderedpatternsofsocialintegration. Giddens all. In usingrulesofgrammarin order to communicatewhat
takes.upacomparableformali!Stapproach,buthearguesthat theyintend,speakersunintentionallyreproducethemasrules
the concept of'structure' in itselfis ofno use to sociology ofgrammar.WhenIspeak,myintentionistocommunicatea
and thatsociologists should speak ofthe 'structuringprop meaning and I may manipulate certaingrammatical rules in
erties' ofsocial interaction as media through which people order to make what I say more plausible, convincing or
achieve their purposes and goals. poetic, for example. However, whilst I may consciously ori
IfsOciologyistounderstand theworldasaworldthatboth ent to grammaticalrules in order to realize my intentions, it
holds meaningfor its membersandis, atleastinpart,repro cannot be said that my intentions include the reproduction
duced and transformed by them, then any sociological ac ofthose grammatical rules. The reproduction ofthe rules of
countofthat world must recognize, so Giddens argues, that grammar is, from the point of view of my use of them, an
ordinary people's ownaccounts ofitare themselves sociolo unintendedconsequence ofmyeffort to communicate amean
giesofakind. Sociologicalknowledgeandunderstandingare ing.