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S. Hrg. 103-74 COMMITTEE STRUCTURE \l M.3' C-MP.tr. INGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ORGANIZATION OF CONGRESS ONE HUNDRED TfflRD CONGRESS FIRST SESSION COMMITTEE STRUCTURE APRIL 20, 22, 27, 29, 1993 MAY 4, 6, 11, 13, 1993 Printed for the use of the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress ^^i^y J(}L3 n H 'O-'./..- S. Hrg. 103-74 COMMITTEE STRUCTURE HEARINGS BEFORE THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE OEGANIZATION OF CONGRESS ONE HUNDRED THIRD CONGRESS FIRST SESSION COMMITTEE STRUCTURE APRIL 20, 22, 27, 29, 1993 MAY 4, 6, 11, 13, 1993 Printed for the use of the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE ^*"18^^ WASHINGTON : 1993 ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice SuperintendentofDocuments.MailStop:SSOP,Washington.DC 20402-9328 ISBN 0-16-040977-2 JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ORGANIZATION OF CONGRESS [Authorized by H. Con. Res. 192, 102d Congress] SENATE DAVID L. BOREN, Oklahoma, Co-Chairman PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico, Vice Chairman JIM SASSER, Tennessee NANCY L. KASSEBAUM, Kansas WENDELL H. FORD, Kentucky TRENT LOTT, Mississippi HARRY REID, Nevada TED STEVENS, Alaska PAUL S. SARBANES, Maryland WILLIAM S. COHEN, Maine DAVID PRYOR, Arkansas RICHARD G. LUGAR, Indiana GEORGE J. MITCHELL, Maine, Ex Officio ROBERT DOLE, Kansas, Ex Officio HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES LEE H. HAMILTON, Indiana, Co-Chairman DAVID DREIER, California, Vice Chairman DAVID OBEY, Wisconsin ROBERT S. WALKER, Pennsylvania AL SWIFT, Washington GERALD B.H. SOLOMON, New York SAM GEJDENSON, Connecticut BILL EMERSON, Missouri JOHN M. SPRATT, Jr., South Carolina WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, D.C. JENNIFER DUNN, Washington RICHARD A. GEPHARDT, Missouri, Ex Officio ROBERT H. MICHEL, Illinois, Ex Officio G. KiM WiNCUP, StaffDirector Walter Oleszek, Policy Director Kelly L. Cordes, ChiefClerk John F. Deeken, Professional StaffMember C. Lawrence Evans, Professional StaffMember Phiup W. Grone, Professional StaffMember Nicholas P. Wise, Professional StaffMember Maureen Groppe, APSA Fellow Carol Hardy Vincent, CRSPolicyAnalyst Paul Rundquist, CRSPolicyAnalyst Mary Lou Smullen, SpecialAssistant Shelley Gough, StaffAssistant Stacey Spevak, StaffAssistant DiANNE Lambert, NASA Detailee <n) CONTENTS APRIL 20, 1993 Page OPENING STATEMENTS Hon. David L. Boren, a U.S. Senator from the State ofOklahoma 1 Hon. David Dreier, a U.S. Representative fromtheState ofCalifornia 2 WITNESSES Hon. Daniel P. Mulhollan, Acting DeputyLibrarian, LibraryofCongress 3 Prepared statement 418 Hon. Adali Stevenson, aformer U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofIllinois 19 Prepared statement 452 William E. Brock, a former U.S. Senatorfrom the StateofTennessee 23 Dr. Roger Davidson, former staff member of the Boiling and Stevenson reform committees 43 Preparedstatement 461 Roger Sperry, Director of Management Studies, National Academy ofPublic Administration 46 Prepared statement 473 Dr. Norm Ornstein, ofthe American Enterprise Institute 48 Preparedstatement 481 Thomas Mann, ofthe BrookingsInstitution 52 Preparedstatement 481 APRIL 22, 1993 OPENING STATEMENT Hon. David Dreier, aU.S. Representativefrom the StateofCalifornia 63 WITNESSES Hon. Dan Glickman, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofKansas 64 Hon. LarryCombest, a U.S. Representative fromtheState ofTexas 78 Prepared statement 509 Hon. Dan Rostenkowski, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofIllinois 87 Preparedstatement 516 Hon. Jan Meyers, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofKansas 102 Prepared statement 525 Hon. George Miller, a U.S. Representative from the State ofCalifornia 110 Preparedstatement 539 APRIL 27, 1993 WITNESSES Hon. Patrick Leahy, aU.S. Senatorfrom theStateofVermont 123 Preparedstatement 544 Hon. Frank Murkowski, a U.S. Senator from the State ofAlaska 136 Prepared statement 549 (III) IV Page Hon. John D. RockefellerIV, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofWestVirginia.. 141 Prepared statement 554 APRIL 29, 1993 OPENING STATEMENTS Hon. Lee H. Hamilton, aU.S. Representativefrom the State ofIndiana 161 Hon. Gerald B. Solomon, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofNewYork.... 173 Prepared statement 574 WITNESSES Hon. TonyP. Hall, a U.S. Representative from the StateofOhio 161 Prepared statement 564 Hon. Bill Emerson, a U.S. Representative from theStateofMissouri 165 Preparedstatement 569 Hon. John D. Dingell, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofMichigan 185 Preparedstatement 606 Hon. Gerry Studds, a U.S. Representative from the StateofMassachusetts 202 Preparedstatement 629 Hon. HerbertH. Bateman, aU.S. Representative from the State ofVirginia.... 205 Prepared statement 638 Hon. William L. (Bill)Clay, a U.S. Representative from the StateofMissouri.. 210 Prepared statement 642 Hon. John T. Myers, A U.S. Representativefrom the StateofIndiana 213 Prepared statement 648 Hon. HenryB. Gonzalez, A U.S. Representativefrom the StateofTexas 220 Prepared statement 655 Hon. JamesA. Leach, a U.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofIowa 225 Preparedstatement 664 MAY 4, 1993 OPENING STATEMENT Hon. David Dreier, A U.S. Representativefrom theStateofCalifornia 233 WITNESSES Hon. JohnJ. Lafalce, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofNewYork 233 Preparedstatement 676 Hon. Daniel K. Inouye, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofHawaii 250 Prepared statement 707 Hon. John McCain, a U.S. Senatorfrom theState ofArizona 259 Prepared statement 722 MAY 6, 1993 OPENING STATEMENT Hon. Lee H. Hamilton, aU.S. Representativefrom the StateofIndiana 273 WITNESSES Hon. Pat Schroeder, a U.S. Representative from the StateofColorado 274 Prepared statement 749 Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney, a U.S. Representativefrom theStateofNewYork.. 276 Prepared statement 756 Hon. EvaClayton, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofNorthCarolina 277 Preparedstatement 754 Hon. G.V. (Sonny) Montgomery, a U.S. Representative from the State of Mississippi 285 Prepared statement 759 Hon. Charlie Rose, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofNorthCarolina 293 V Page Prepared statement 771 Hon. Norman Mineta, aU.S. Representative from the StateofCalifornia 302 Prepared statement 775 Hon. Bud Shuster, a U.S. Representative from the Commonwealth ofPennsyl- vania 306 Prepared statement 775 Hon. Pat Roberts, a U.S. Representative from the StateofKansas 316 Preparedstatement 842 APPENDIX Written statements: Hon. Jennifer Dunn, a U.S. Representative from the StateofWashington.... 747 Hon. HenryJ. Hyde, a U.S. Representativefrom the State ofIllinois 832 MAY 11, 1993 WITNESSES Hon. E. (Kika) de laGarza, a U.S. Representative from theState ofTexas 325 Preparedstatement 865 Hon. Carlos Moorhead, a U.S. Representative from the State ofCalifornia 339 Prepared statement 871 Hon. David Pryor, a U.S. Senator from the StateofArkansas 346 Prepared statement 878 Reporton the Achievementsofthe Senate Special Committee on Aging 894 Hon. William Cohen, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofMaine 351 Prepared statement 881 Hon. Dale Bumpers, a U.S. Senatorfrom the StateofArkansas 361 Prepared statement 925 Hon. William F. dinger, Jr., a U.S. Representative from the Commonwealth ofPennsylvania 366 Prepared statement 949 Bibliography on congressional oversight 956 Guide to records ofthe House in the National Archives 981 APPENDIX Written statement: Hon. JenniferDunn, a U.S. Representative from the State ofWashington.... 863 MAY 13, 1993 WITNESSES Hon. BobGraham, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofFlorida 375 Preparedstatement 1004 Charts, press articles, and lists 1014 Hon. ButlerDerrick, a U.S. Representativefrom the State ofSouth Carolina... 387 Hon. Benjamin A. Gilman, a U.S. Representative from the State ofNewYork. 396 Prepared statement 1019 Hon. Don Young, a U.S. Representativefrom the State ofAlaska 400 Prepared statement 1022 Hon. Dennis DeConcini,aU.S. SenatorfromtheStateofArizona 406 Preparedstatement 1029 ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD Letters: To Chairman Hamilton and Vice Chairman Dreier from the Republican Leadershipofthe House ofRepresentatives 1042 To Chairmen and Vice Chairmen from Hon. Jim McDermott, Chairman, House Committeeon Standards ofOfficial Conduct 1046 Written statements: Senator Claiborne Pell, Chairman, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.. 1049 VI Page Representative Jack Fields, Ranking Member, House Committee on Mer- chantMarineandFisheries 1054 Representative Ronald Dellums, Chairman, House Committee on Armed Services 1061 Former Senator James Abourezk, Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, 95thCongress 1067 Representative Carrie Meek ofFlorida in support ofconsolidating commit- teestructureas itpertainstochildren 1071 Representative Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. ofVirginia, accompanied by a copy of the amici curiae briefin support ofthe plaintiffs the case ofRobert H. Michel, etalv. Donnald K. Anderson, etal 1072 Representative GeorgeW. Gekas, ofPennsylvania 1117 COMMITTEE STRUCTURE TUESDAY, APRIL 20, 1993 United States Congress, Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress, Washington, DC. The committee met, pursuant to call, at 2 p.m., in room HC-5, The Capitol, Senator David L. Boren (co-chairman of the committee) presiding. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID L. BOREN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA Chairman Boren. We are going to go ahead and begin. Our colleagues in the House have a vote, so they will be having to go to that vote and then they will be immediately rejoining us. Today we begin a new set of hearings on an issue that is ex- tremely important to every Member of Congress: The committee structure. We have heard already a great deal from the witnesses that have given us overviews of their concerns about Congress, the need to make reforms and changes and virtually every statement that has come from Members and former Members expressing their worries about what needs to be fixed as far as Congress is concerned. Committee structure has figured largely in their com- ments. Woodrow Wilson a century ago stated that Congress in session is Congress on public exhibition while Congress in its committee rooms is Congress at work. And today, and for the next several weeks, we will be discovering how well that work is being done. I think it is fair to say that Congress at work in its committee rooms presents a confusing picture to the American public. Since C-SPAN began covering the proceedings of Floor activities and committees, the public has had the opportunity to see firsthand how we operate. But for those members of the public who come to Washington to A visit or even testify, they see a very different picture: Floor debate where a single Member may be speaking to an empty cham- ber, a committee hearing where the committee or subcommittee chairman might be the only one in attendance. And that often hap- pens because there are several compiittees meeting at the same time or votes occurring elsewhere as is about to happen to us at this moment. These are things we hope we can change as we look at reforming the structure of Congress and the Senate. Today, as we have said before. Members serve on an average of 12 committees and subcommittees with some serving on up to 22 different panels, so it is not (1) surprising that Members run from one meeting to another with fractured attention and inability to focus on the issues before their committees as they are debated on the Floor or debated in committees. The problems with the committee system are obvious to Mem- bers: Too many assignments, overlapping jurisdictions, conflicting structures between the House and the Senate, overlapping claims by committees and subcommittees on executive branch agencies. The Joint Committee will see if we can resolve some of these very entrenched problems. Today we have a full day to kick off our hearing set on committee structure. The Acting Deputy Librarian of Congress will present a set of committee reform plans that were prepared by the Congressional Research Service and were prepared for the Joint Committee. The next panel will be two former Senators who chaired the most significant committee reform panel since the first Joint Com- mittee on the Organization of Congress in 1945. And finally, we will hear from a panel of outside experts on the committee system and their recommendations for reform. Committee members are interested in this issue. In fact, we in- vited all chairmen and Ranking Members of the standing committees to testify on this issue. As of today, 38 chairmen and Ranking Members want to testify on this issue. Because of the strong interest in both chambers, we have now seven sessions scheduled on this issue for the next three and a half weeks so that these Members can be accommodated beginning this Thursday. Now, we do have a full day today, so I would like to go right on, if none of my fellow Members have opening statements, so that we can get at as much as we can. Vice Chairman Dreier does have a briefstatement he wishes to make. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID DREIER, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA Mr. Dreier. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would make one minor correction in your opening statement when you said many Members have an interest in this. I found that all Members have a particular interest in this. Just over the past couple ofdays, I have been hearing from more than a few of my colleagues in the House who were very concerned about this bold action that we might be taking in the area of committee reform and it is going to be a real challenge for us. I want to say that I appreciate your calling this hearing and I look forward to the testimony from all of our witnesses and a de- tailed outline ofall the plans that are before us. Chairman Boren. Thank you very much. Congressman Dreier, and I appreciate your constant support for our taking action on this front. — When the people look at what we are doing and after all this institution belongs to the American—people, not to us, we are just temporary occupants of these chairs and when the people look at a Congress that can't even for sure accurately count the number of committees and subcommittees that it has, figures that range