Activities of federal law enforcement agencies toward the Branch Davidians : joint hearings before the Subcommittee on Crime of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, and the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and PDF
Preview Activities of federal law enforcement agencies toward the Branch Davidians : joint hearings before the Subcommittee on Crime of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, and the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and
Wmhes im ) of federal enforcement agencies TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS (PART 2) Y4.J89/l:104/72/PT.2 IxO Activities of Federal Lau Enforcene. '-^^-KJ-JN ^ THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES AND THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION JULY AND 25, 26, 27, 1995 COMMITTEE ON THE JUD Serial No. 72 OCT ; , ggg Printed for the use ofthe Committees on *e'Jia^556Si^^ffli^^i!j|tofl and Oversight '""----C^^ISJt/VKSS.'^IJnV' uw AcnvmES OF federal enforcement agencies TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS (PART 2) JOINT HEARINGS BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAKY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION JULY 25, 26, AND 27, 1995 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY Serial No. 72 Printed for the use of the Committees on the Judiciary and Government Reform and Oversight U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON : 1996 ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice SuperintendentofDocuments,CongressionalSalesOffice,Washington,DC 20402 lODM n.1ft.nt;'^49fi-7 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois, Chairman CARLOS J. MOORHEAD, California JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., PATRICIA SCHROEDER, Colorado Wisconsin BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts BILL McCOLLUM, Florida CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York GEORGE W. GEKAS, Pennsylvania HOWARD L. BERMAN, California HOWARD COBLE, North Carohna RICK BOUCHER, Virginia LAMAR SMITH, Texas JOHN BRYANT, Texas STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico JACK REED, Rhode Island ELTON GALLEGLY, California JERROLD NADLER, New York CHARLES T. CANADY, Florida ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia BOB INGLIS, South CaroUna MELVIN L. WATT, North CaroUna BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia XAVIER BECERRA, California STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana JOSE E. SERRANO, New York MARTIN R. HOKE, Ohio ZOE LOFGREN, California SONNY BONO, California SHEILAJACKSON LEE, Texas FRED HEINEMAN, North CaroUna ED BRYANT, Tennessee STEVE CHABOT, Ohio MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, IlUnois BOB BARR, Georgia Alan F. Coffey, Jr., General Counsel/StaffDirector Julian Epstein, Minority StaffDirector Subcommittee on Crime BILL McCOLLUM, Florida, Chairman STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia HOWARD COBLE, North Carohna ZOE LOFGREN, CaUfornia FRED HEINEMAN, North CaroUna SHEILAJACKSON LEE, Texas ED BRYANT, Tennessee MELVIN L. WATT, North CaroUna STEVE CHABOT, Ohio BOB BARR, Georgia Paul J. McNulty, ChiefCounsel Glenn R. Schmitt, Counsel Daniel J. Bryant,Assistant Counsel Tom Diaz, Minority Counsel (II) COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT WILLIAM F. CLINGER, Jr., Pennsylvania, Chairman BENJAMIN A. OILMAN, New York CARDISS COLLINS, lUinois DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRYA WAXMAN, California CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland TOM LANTOS, California CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico MAJOR R. OWENS, New York ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida EDLOPHUS TOWNS, New York WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, Jr., New Hampshire JOHN M. SPRATT, Jr., South CaroUna JOHN M. McHUGH, New York LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New STEPHEN HORN, California York JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts GARYA. CONDIT, CaUfomia THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota DAVID M. Mcintosh, Indiana KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New york RANDY TATE, Washington THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin DICK CHRYSLER, Michigan GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota BARBARA-ROSE COLLINS, Michigan MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of WILLL\M J. MARTINI, NewJersey Columbia JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona GENE GREEN, Texas MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, Ilhnois CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida CHARLES F. BASS, New Hampshire CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio BILL BREWSTER, Oklahoma MARSHALL "MARK" SANFORD, South TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania Carolina ROBERT L. EHRLICH, Jr., Maryland BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont (Independent) James L. Clarke, StaffDirector Kevin Sabo, General Counsel Judith McCoy, ChiefClerk Jeffrey Wilmot, Professional StaffMember Bud Myers, Minority StaffDirector David Schooler, Minority ChiefCounsel Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, Jr., New Hampshire, Chairman ROBERT L. EHRLICH, Jr., Maryland KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi JOHN L. MICA, Florida CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts TOM LANTOS, California MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona York GARY A. CONDIT, California BILL BREWSTER, OUahoma Ex Officio WILLIAM F. CLINGER, Jr., Pennsylvania CARDISS COLLINS, Illinois Robert Charles, StaffDirector and ChiefCounsel T. March Bell, Counsel MiCHELE Lang, Counsel Sean Littlefield, SpecialAssistant and Clerk (III) CONTENTS HEARINGS DATES Page July 25, 1995 1 July 26, 1995 283 July 27, 1995 461 OPENING STATEMENTS McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State ofFlorida, andchairman. Subcommittee on Crime 4 Zeliff, Hon. William H., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of New Hampshire, and chairman. Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and CriminalJustice 2 WITNESSES Arnold,J. Phillip,Ph.D., Reunion Institute, Houston, TX 144 Betz, Anthony, Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau of Inves- tigation, Baltimore Division 473 Bynies, Capt. David, TexasRanger 143 Cavanaugh, James, former Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco andFirearms, Dallas,TX 294 Cook, Capt. Maurice, seniorTexas Ranger 142 DeGuerin, Dick, attorney forDavidKoresh 22 Jamar, Jeffrey, formerSpecial Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau ofInvestiga- tion, SanAntonio, TX 296,471 Marcus, Dr. William L., Toxicologist, EnvironmentalProtectionAgency 389 McCarthy, Ronald, formerofTicer, LosAngeles Police Department 330 McClure, Frank, deputy sheriff, Douglas County, GA 146 Noesner, Gaiy, Supervisory Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Quantico, VA 310 Parks, Hays, Military Law Specialist, DepartmentofDefense 394 Potts, Larry A., former Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative Division, Federal Bureau ofInvestigation 480 Rogers, Dick, formerHead ofHostageRescue Team, Federal Bureau ofInves- tigation 478 Sage, Byron, Supervisory Special Resident Agent, Federal Bureau of Inves- tigation, Austin,TX 302,477 Salem, Hany, Ph.D., Chief Scientist for Life Sciences, U.S. Army Chemical Biological Defense Command 491 Smerick, Peter, former Criminal Investigative Analyst, Investigative Support Unit, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA 310 Stone, AlanA., M.D., professorofpsychiatry andlaw. HarvardUniversity 401 Tabor, James D., Ph.D., associate professor of religious studies, University ofNorth Carolina at Charlotte 144 Uhlig, (Jeorge F., Ph.D., professorofchemistry. College ofEastern Utah 384 Upshall, David, Ph.D., Toxicologist, Chemical and Biological Defence Estab- lishment, Salisbury, England, accompanied by Paul Rice, M.D., Head of Pathology and Toxicology, Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment, Salisbury, England 387 Zimmermann,Jack, attorney forSteve Schneider 19 (V) VI Page LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARINGS Arnold, J. Phillip, Ph.D., Reunion Institute, Houston, TX: Prepared state- ment 206 Barr, Hon. Bob, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia: Document concerning arrests of Randall Weaver, Vicky Weaver, and Kevin Harris 581 Letter dated March 23, 1993, to the Attorney General Janet Reno, from AssistantU.S.Attorney Bill Johnston 166 Brewster, Hon. Bill K., a Representative in Congress from the State ofOkla- homa: Letter dated July 27, 1995, to Cherri Branson, professional staff, Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, from Peter E. Voytek, Ph.D., executive director, HalogenatedSolvents IndustryAlliance, Inc 410 Collins, Hon. Cardiss, a Representative in Congress from the State ofIllinois: Pireparedstatement 289 DeGuerin, Dick, attorneyfor DavidKoresh: Prepared statement 102 McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State ofFlorida, and chairman. Subcommittee on Crime: Interview transcript ofRon Noble ofCBS on "60Minutes," May 14, 1995 10 Potts, Larry A., former Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative Division, Federal Bureau ofInvestigation: Prepared statement 586 Tabor, James D., Ph.D., associate professor of religious studies. University ofNorth Carolina at Charlotte: Prepared statement 246 Thurman, Hon. Karen L., a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida: Prepared statement 288 Wise, Hon. Robert E., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State ofWest Virginia: Curriculum vitae ofDr. Harry Salem 516 Zelifl", Hon. William H., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of New Hampshire, and chairman, Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and CriminalJustice: Prepared statement 464 Transcriptof: "The Last RecordedWords ofDavidKoresh" 532 Zimmermann,Jack B., attorneyforSteveSchneider;Prepared statement 129 ACTIVITIES OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS (Part 2) TUESDAY, JULY 25, 1995 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Na- tional Security, International Affairs, and Crimi- nal Justice, Committee on Government Reform AND Oversight, Jointly With the Subcommittee on Crime, Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, DC. The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 9:42 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. William H. Zeliff, Jr. (chairman ofthe Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal Justice) presiding and Hon. Bill McCollum (chairman ofthe Subcommittee on Crime). Present from the Subcommittee on National Security, Inter- national Affairs, and Criminal Justice: Representatives William H. Zeliff, Jr., Robert L. Ehrlich, Jr., Steven Schiff, Ileana Ros- Lehtinen, John L. Mica, Peter Blute, Mark E. Souder, John B. Shadegg, Karen L. Thurman, Robert E. Wise, Jr., Gene Taylor, Tom Lantos, Louise Mcintosh Slaughter, and Bill K. Brewster. Present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Representatives Bill McCollum, Steven Schiff, Stephen E. Buyer, Howard Coble, Fred Heineman, Ed Bryant of Tennessee, Steve Chabot, Bob Barr, Charles E. Schumer, Robert C. Scott, Zoe Lofgren, Sheila Jackson Lee, and Melvin L. Watt. Also present from the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight: Representatives William F. dinger Jr., Cardiss Collins ofIllinois, and Gene Green. Also present from the Committee on the Judiciary: Representa- tives Henry J. Hyde and John Conyers, Jr. Staffpresent from the Subcommittee on National Security, Inter- national Affairs, and Criminal Justice: Robert Charles, staff direc- tor and chief counsel; T. March Bell, counsel for justice affairs; Marshall Cobleigh, senior policy advisor; Michele Lang, special counsel; Sean Littlefield, special assistant and clerk; and L. Stephan Vincze, defense counsel; Committee on Government Re- form and Oversight: Kevin Sabo, general counsel; Judith McCoy, chief clerk; Jeffrey Wilmot, professional staff member; Bud Myers, mmority staffdirector; David Schooler, minority chiefcounsel; Ron- ald Stroman, minority deputy staff director; Donald Goldberg, mi- nority assistant to counsel; Cherri Branson, minority professional (1) staff member; Ellen Rayner, minority chief clerk; Cecelia Morton, minority office manager; and Eddie Arnold, public affairs officer Staff present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Paul J. McNulty, chief counsel; Glenn R. Schmitt, counsel; Daniel J. Bryant, assist- ant counsel; and Audray L. Clement, clerk; Committee on the Judi- ciary Alan F. Coffey, Jr., general counsel/staff director; Dan Free- man, parliamentarian; Julian Epstein, minority staff director; Perry Apelbaum, minority general counsel; Melanie Sloan, minority counsel; and Tom Diaz, minority counsel. OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN ZELIFF Mr. Zeliff. The joint oversight committees on Waco will now coTmoedtaoyowridlelr.be a very interesting day, a ,long djay. tWtte uhave panelis tthhaatt wwiellctaankemousv,eIfboerlwiaervde,, laanted iInttoaltkheedewvietnihngm.yWceollaeraeguheo.peBfiulll McCoUum, and rather than duplicating some ofthe material, he is going to talk in his opening statement about what we have learned so far, and I will quickly talk about where we are going. From my point of view, as we reach this halfway point, we have been very committed to getting to the truth, to bringing out all the facts as to exactly what happened at Waco. We got off to a tough start in the beginning, but I think that we are really dealing with substance, and, again, we have learned about some important Again, Bill will get into these in detail, but in Mr. Rodriguez's testimony yesterday, I think our hearts went out to him as he ex- plained in great detail how he tried to warn people that the Davidians had been tipped off. We will hear more about that today. We also learned that David Koresh offered to have people come in and see the weapons. Again, these are the things that we really wanted to get to the bottom of. We now move into phase two; all the facts just mentioned, we will get into what happened during theOn51Mdaarycshth1a,t 1f9o9ll3o,wetdh.e FBI took control,, A*T^tF. was relrievejd off command, and the FBI and the Texas Rangers began what has come to be known now as the Waco siege. The FBI-controlled siege ended with CS gas and a fire that burns in many hearts and mciomnpdosunTdh,atledfitroe,22whcihcihldrfeonlloawnedd mionrseerttihoann o6f0CmSengaasndinwtoomtehne burning alive. In just 15 minutes the people who had been on the other end ofthe telephone were dead. This week we will ask the Justice Department to answer tougn questions about their role: What happened that caused this second tragedy? Who made the key decisions? Why were they made and on what information? And how can we prevent anything like this frWomeewvielrlhhaepaprenfirnogm asgcahiolna?rs, lawyers, and eventual„ly Jtanet4. oKeno herself Did the FBI's negotiators give up? Did internal tension at the FBI develop between the tactical people and the negotiators.'' Were offers ofsurrender made and rejected? Could the Texas Rang- ers have ended the siege or assisted in that end ifgiven a chmance.' Was the crime scene evidence destroyed or tampered with any way any Waco documents? What were the roles of Mr. Potts, Mr.
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